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Re: One last OP theory darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 16/09/2016 09:44:34 PM

I'd imagine some of them would be sacrifices. Note that all the Sea Folk sisters are Browns, and librarians. I'd say that suggests certain personality types are picked, especially those with more sedentary inclinations, who wouldn't find much outlet for their proclivities as sailors. They're also not strong, so it could be just as much that they are sent away for their lack of utility as Windfinders. IIRC, someone else from the Tower confirms this, that the Sea Folk who come are so rare & weak that they don't bother looking for more recruits there. But regarding the consistent weakness of the sacrifices, maybe Cloud Dancing isn't really a Talent, like Healing, but more a Weave, like Traveling, and the girls they send are too weak to overcome the lack of natural aptitude at weather control.

I’d say all of these women were considered sacrifices by the Sea Folk. During the negotiations with Egwene and the Hall one of the demands they made was the return of the Sisters who were Sea Folk. It was also pretty clear IMO that the Sea Folk deliberately sent meek and weaker women to the Tower to keep the Aes Sedai off their backs, it’s one of the reasons the ONLY people who could be denied “The Gift of Passage” were Aes Sedai. It’s at least implied that these women were also told to not deliberately excel during training too, IIRC Moiraine or Siuan noted that in New Spring the Sea Folk woman who was an Accepted with them even seemed sort of obviously trying to go unnoticed.
IDK, I'm thinking in this case of RJ's assertion that there is a greater element of accuracy in Seanchan fortune tellers, due to their reproductive issues. Maybe there is some sort of natural selection at work that causes more weather talents among the Sea Folk, or at least a greater incidence of strength in Air & Water. I would also guess that they find other uses for the Windfinders as the Seanchan do with damane who lack the ability to fight, such as Aes Sedai captives, or women who can't make lightning or fire very well.

Potentially … we know that there is a strong genetic component in the appearance of the ability so there is no ruling out that the Sea Folk essentially bred the Talent into their gene pool over time. I would say that it seems less likely that it’s only flow strength in Air and Water that’s creating this situation since that’s fairly true of almost all women, even the Aiel who one would expect to struggle with Water given their environments. Begs the question of why more Aiel women aren’t strong in Earth 
The issue with Talents has always been the vagueness around how they work. Personally I think RJ did this pretty deliberately to give himself some creative leeway for when he needed something to happen that didn’t fit the existing rules … he could always slap the name “Talent” onto it and didn’t have to explain much beyond.
As a sidenote, The Seanchan foretelling was always an anomaly to me, it implies that even Talents that are seemingly random can be trained, which is at least somewhat backed up by the little pieces we’ve seen from the AoL, but it also seems kind of out of place to me … how would the Seanchan be able to do this with damane when the punishments for misspeaking are so severe? Given the nature of how Seanchan viewed damane why would they even try? From the other women we’ve seen with the Talent it was totally unconscious in how it came to them, Gitata, Elaida, Nicola and Min (assuming that’s what she does) had no way of identifying when it came upon them and in at least Nicola’s case she didn’t even know what she had said. Dreaming seems more like a trainable ability than Foretelling.
I find it hard to believe that Elayne's intimidation would cancel out a a far more fundamental inclination, especially considering that was her initial reaction to Jorin's weather working as well. Elayne personally is the type to embrace and rise to challenges, rather than let them put her off. She also leans toward very low personal self-assessments, which should have closed off a whole lot more avenues, if that was the case. It seems just as likely that her natural lack of affinity for Healing weaves would have caused her to be intimidated and see as complex what Nynaeve could do intuitively.

I’m not talking about a conscious decision or something she in anyway even realized. I’m saying it’s like the gesture thing. Your first exposure pretty much sets the neural pathways and determines what you can do. In both Elayne and Egwene’s case they first really witnessed Healing as active channelers under circumstances that were stressful and made them think it was practically impossible, imprinting on them an weaker level of ability even though they later had immense strength and skill and all the flow affinity etc necessary to easily perform the weaves.

But remember, she gave no indication of such abilities, until Jorin taught her. She probably is naturally strong in Air, that being the method she used to kill their Myrdraal captors in tDR, but never seems to have thought to put it to work on the weather. Aviendha's demonstrated skill with dispersing the rain was another such example of no normal inclination, but getting skill from access to teachings.

This actually backs up the point I’m making. When exposed to Jorin her first feelings were amazement/awe and she was excited by the prospect of learning how this was done. Most women are naturally stronger in Air, but clearly not all women are masters at weather manipulation. We know that Aviendha was impressed by all the water and rain etc in the wetlands and essentially first became a channeler right at this same time … maybe that had an effect on her.
That was just clever applications, not messing with the weave itself. She wasn't thinking in terms of the science or engineering behind making different gateways, she was just thinking of outcomes that would be clever. It's like thinking how useful a feature would be on a car, compared to thinking of the engineering necessary to implement it. Yukiri was doing the former, not the latter. That whole scene disgusted me anyway, as it seemed to be one of the more egregious examples of Sandersonian idiocy. Most of the problems discussed in that scene could be solved by a manhole cover of Air, or a Folded Light barrier over the opening. Heck, the one problem Egwene brought up - accumulation of Dragkar corpses that tried to fly through the gateway was so devoid of thought, I personally think Sanderson must have lost a bet or something to include something so dumb. It is a horizontal hole, which is wide enough to watch an entire army! Any Draghkar who dies in the act of flying through, will immediately drop right back down! And that's assuming they are dumb enough to fly through gateways given the known fatal consequences!

I’d say this was Sanderson’s ham-handed way of trying to impress on us that Yukiri was Talented with Traveling. I didn’t say it was a good example 
They are extremely necessary for food production. No one lives in an insulated house, no one travels or transports goods in a water-tight car. Nynaeve's two main jobs as Wisdom were healing and weather forecasts. If changing the weather to optimal conditions were remotely humanly possible, that would have been on the list! In fact, once involved in worldly affairs, her predictive Talent gained greater scope, where in the village, the only thing of sufficient importance and interest to make her pay attention to its warnings were storms. If formative wants, desires and necessities established a channeler's limits, Nynaeve would never have had her prediction ability expand to include danger & strife.

Maybe, but are the women who care about such things likely to go to the Tower? I’d argue that Aes Sedai don’t exactly attract women who want to do a whole ton to help their communities, most seem pretty much self-absorbed and go to the Tower to gain power in some capacity. Nynaeve’s job was to predict weather, not affect it, there’s a big difference there. If she had suddenly started making it rain or get warmer she was at far greater risk of people figuring out what was going on than a few miraculous cures performed by someone who was trained to heal people. Most Wilders end up with pretty significant blocks that don’t go away until someone beats it out of them (either literally or figuratively), manipulating the weather might crop up from time to time in Wilders, but given how Wilders tend to first come to the Source it seems like we wouldn’t see this unless the circumstances allowed, something like suddenly needing to stop a flood or a tornado or something, seems far less likely than a young girl on the verge of touching the Source desperately wanting the young man to like her or hear what her mother was saying to a friend behind closed doors or help the farmer with a broken arm. All far more likely day-to-day events for the majority of WoT-ers
No, that is exactly opposite. Healing can only be attributed to the person who tries to cure a wound or disease. How would anyone know who fixed the weather, or even that it HAD been fixed? That would be well beyond the knowledge of anyone but a channeler. Even abrupt changes could be seen as seasonal. I've seen lots of torrential downpours that stopped after five minutes, and I've seen snow more than two months before it had ever done so in my area in my memory. I never went to witchcraft as the explanation, nor would I have the faintest clue as to who the witch in question might be. A wound that Heals overnight, however, immediately points fingers at anyone who tried to do something about it. The only way to hide one's involvement would be to sneak up on a patient, or else let a doctor treat them and Heal the bandaged wound later.

Not really, the women who are actively trying to conceal that they are using the OP have no trouble hiding it behind herbs and the appearance of some level of mundane training. Ebu Dari Wise Women are famous everywhere for their uncanny abilities, yet no one whispered about the OP for the last thousand years. But if lightning started striking villagers who pissed off the local farm girl you bet your ass folks would start questioning it. Sure it’s possible to hide some of these effects if the individual is doing it with her own full knowledge, but most of these Wilders have no idea that they are even behind what’s going on just as Nynaeve had to be pressed extremely hard to even admit it was a possibility and no one in the Two Rivers ever suspected what she could do, even Tam who had clearly been exposed to Aes Sedai. Her own mentor assumed Nynaeve had given Egwene some form of herbal concoction in desperation.
Nynaeve, at least, didn't even know what she was doing was channeling. Most wilders would also not have any idea that Aes Sedai could detect them. In any event, fear of White Tower detection seems a pretty abstract concern when subconsciously selecting their areas of ability. And regardless of one's level of concern for the community's level of agricultural success, the ability to change the weather to one's convenience would still be a highly desirable power. Not to mention one's own ability to survive depends on said communal agricultural success, what with the pre-technological limitations on long range food transport and storage.

It actually seems more likely that a male Wilder would be the one to affect the weather since the work that is most effected by the weather would be centered around male tasks such as tending the farm. Despite natural flow strengths male gender roles in agrarian culture lends itself to this IMO. And then there is Rand and his turning to lightning strikes early in his channeling career. Nynaeve didn’t start using lightning until well after she was aware of what she was really doing.
You are probably right about the Tower being an abstract, but not so much so that it wasn’t amongst the first things the Two Rivers children assumed about Moiraine and Lan when they first appeared.

It was Skimming. His appearance in Tarwin's Gap was, I am convinced, a function of the Green Man's place. Someshta said it does not move, contrary to what everyone believes. The variable factor is the location of those who need to find it. Therefore, it transports people to its location imperceptibly, based on their degree of need. Likewise, Rand, as the closest person to the place's reason for existence (it was hiding his banner, and two objects related to his Prophesied Battle, whereas Someshta was merely the caretaker - ergo, Rand is the one for whom the EotW was made and the Green Man's place established), could use that same property to go where he was most needed at that moment. His moving from the hill to the Gap more closely resembles the way the whole group moved from a day or so into the Blight, to beyond the Mountains of Doom, rather than any manifestation of Traveling. And while it might be that RJ hadn't settled on gateways as the mechanism at that point in the story, there were still visual effects when Ishamael visited LTT in the prologue.

If Rand was establishing any limits at that moment, it would have been with Skimming, which should have also precluded the ease with which he surpasses those limits while pursuing Asmodean.


Skimming is a subset of Traveling not a totally different ability. It’s a side effect of knowing the location you were going but not the starting location thus making Traveling impossible without waiting around for hours. I don’t think Rand had to have used the ability at its maximum in his first use, I think the first time simply sets up the limit mentally. He had great need for the ability so it blew open the ability for him mentally thus allowing for a greater capacity than someone who was maybe afraid of the idea of leaving home or someone who was intimidated by the complexity of the weave the first time they saw it.
I didn't recall that being an actual limitation on Aviendha's ability, but a block, like Nynaeve's need for herbs with Healing. She directly attributed her weakness to the shameful circumstances under which she first Traveled.

It was a problem of the second weave limitation. She used her own instinctive weave to create her first gateway but couldn’t recall how she did it, the weave she later used was too similar to what Aviendha had done originally to allow for her to use the new one to full effect, or without applying more strength than necessary to power it. Her thoughts about being certain she could create a larger gateway or use less strength is she could recall her original weave.
Well, that's true for lots of stuff. I don't think RJ considered it all that important, and only worked out the mechanisms and details to the extent that he did, so he would be able to keep things consistent while writing.
In that vein, I think personality and Talents being related fits better with the themes of WoT, and RJ's intentions as a storyteller, rather than circumstances locking in abilities.

That’s a fair point … and one I don’t disagree with … I guess I’m just looking for a mental exercise in WHY they are related. I don’t think it really has much of an effect on the story or the theme’s RJ was hitting, just me trying to wrap my brain around the fact that the relationship exists.

The more I think about it, I am coming to the conclusion that you're right about Aviendha's issue being a 2nd weave thing, especially since it's the same book where Cadsuane and Sorilea discuss that issue, and the gestures component. And over in Elayne's PoV, we also see the differences in throwing fireballs between the Aes Sedai and the other women. It stands to reason that Aviendha's issue would be in there as an example of the 2nd weave problem they also discussed.

And it's stuff like this that lowers my opinion of Sanderson even further. Even when two storylines in the same book never crossed paths, there were thematic things tying them together! Sanderson might have decided to release the books between LoC & WH in similar fashion to his butchering of aMoL, because there is very little crossover between PoV arcs. For the most part, Rand, Perrin, Mat, Elayne/Nynaeve, and Egwene have little interaction and crossover, so one might think you could get away with dividing them as tGS & ToM were. But you'd lose all that thematic unity stuff! tPoD had a lot of things in there about the dangers of power both of the One (recall Rand's noting similar blocks and shortcomings among his Asha'man entourage, and Gabrelle assuming the Asha'man they find at the BT suffer under common wilder limitations, as well as the revelations in Elayne's cluster and Cadsuane's) and political variety. Rand's, Perrin's, Egwene's and Elayne's stories are about about the politics of leadership, as opposed to the burdens, on which the previous book focused (which probably also explains Mat's omission as much as his injury & recuperation - he would not be in a place to be dealing with that sort of thing). I wonder if B-Sand ever even noticed that stuff.


Amen.

IDK, I still think Healing is quite a leap when seeking to exercise sadistic impulses. I also doubt that they were such a driving force in the adolescent Semirhage. Usually that sort of thing emerges later in life as one gains experience, and refines one's tastes.

Possibly, I’m just extrapolating from the theme of personalities and abilities matching up … Kind of goes together that someone with great medical knowledge and skill would have a much better understanding of how to cause pain in the human body. From what we know of Semirhage she was “long gone” well before the Bore was opened so it seems as though she has had these inclinations for most of her life.

Yet another under-served issue with the world building, IMO. I expected a lot more from the discussions about barriers falling and new things emerging in the first two books. That suggested wolfbrothers and sniffers and Min's thing were the tip of the iceberg, rather than its entirety..

Agreed! I was always on the lookout for more people with strange abilities to be cropping up … instead we got ghosts and weirdo moments in Hinderstap
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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