Active Users:346 Time:05/05/2024 08:51:39 PM
Re: One last OP theory darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 19/09/2016 06:48:30 PM

.
The variety of manifestations suggests rather to me that it just might be trainable, since there are plainly different ways to do the thing. If the form of expression can vary, what else about it can?.

True. I guess it just seems odd to me since every other instance we are directly exposed to it’s an involuntary expression. Although there were some hints that it was more reliable during the AoL and the early Breaking.


I don't know. At their first meeting, Rand noted that her treatment of his hands was reminiscent of Nynaeve's, implying that she was using the power in some way. She was never called a wilder or anything, nor was any references made to that incident (though IMO, her Healing Nynaeve's black eye from Latrelle while she was fighting Moghedian in T'A'R for the first time, might have been a way of settling that issue for readers who had that same interpretation), so it's impossible to say what she actually did. Maybe there is some way for a channeler to augment natural processes without actually channeling, somehow sharing a fragment of whatever it is about her that extends their lifespan.

I always just got the impression that he was “mooning over her” in that moment. She had Elaida watching her like a hawk so I can’t imagine she would have been actually touching the Source at any point prior to arriving in the Tower. Elaida’s view of Wilders would have ensured Elayne would have been in the Tower at the first hint of her ability awakening. The first time she actively sees the ability in someone else is when she sees the glow around Egwene. She also showed little ability with Healing with Rand in TSR after the bottom pinching incident 

But why would she then be put off by something which was already an area of interest for her?.

It’s a gut level reaction to the complexity and circumstances of the first real exposure she has to seeing the weave performed. Both she and Egwene obvious know about Healing, and Egwene is seen in alternative lives with even greater ability with it than Nynaeve, but the first time they actually watch Nynaeve perform the weave they are both stunned and a little scared of how complex it appears. My point here is that their first real experience seeing Healing being performed impressed a generally negative emotion in them, thus it atrophied their ability because very deep down in their “lizard brain” they doubted that they could do it well because of that experience.


Yes and no. My point was that no one would NOT care about such things in such a society. Maybe some AoL types like Graendal (which might also explain why they were not as good as the Sea Folk - once they had the weather under control, not to mention climate controlled buildings, it became something they ignored). Not every woman who cared about the weather would want to go to the Tower, but every woman who would want to go to the Tower, would be one of those people who care about the weather. Because she is a person living in a pre-industrial time period.

Yes, of course they would care about such things, but there is also the opportunity factor and need factor. Wilders almost universally first touch the Source during a moment of great need, an emergency situation when they have little choice aside from using the Power to accomplish some task. Thus my comment about floods or severe weather being the trigger as opposed to day to day weather issues creating the situation necessary for a channeler to actively spark. This is why there are so many blocks with Wilders, they need end up doing something with the Power during a heightened emotional state and end up unable to touch the source without specific circumstances present (i.e. Nynaeve being angry, or Theodrin being aroused by a boy).


In that she, and anyone else, had no idea it was even possible. The means would be unclear, but the desire present. Like making someone obey your wishes, or hear by remote, which are the two most common wilder tricks, and just as conceptually impossible as changing the weather. .

Possible for certain, but as I said above I think the immediacy of the need plays a pretty significant role in how a Wilder comes to touch the Source. Nynaeve was angry about Egwene’s eminent death, Theodrin was essentially sexually aroused, I suspect Tarna was afraid thus closed her eyes etc… I think you are approaching this from a logical point of view, but leaving out the very personal emotional need that seems to trigger the channeling event and the associated block.

Women like Moiraine grew up with full knowledge of the OP so touching the source for her wasn’t likely to be the same as for Nynaeve, odds are Moiraine had Aes Sedai around her her whole life and may even have been guided a bit before she left for the Tower. Being a clever and rather devious minded individual she could have come upon the eavesdropping trick after a little experimentation.


No, they are not that much more likely. You're still thinking like a modern person, for whom only the most extreme weather is an issue. An unseasonal frost, or a spring with a little too much rain or a summer without quite enough, could ruin a crop, and even if you aren't going to starve, might have to do without a particular food item one year. A lot of teenagers would definitely have motivations to change the weather when your whole social life depends on being able to go outside. Don't you think there were a whole bunch of girls with crushes or general romantic aspirations who were hoping with every fiber of their beings that the weather would warm up enough to celebrate Beltine that winter, immediately before EotW? Being able to walk around in public showing off that braid was the culmination of Egwene's lifelong ambition at that point in the story! A cold spring that refused to come, or a week of torrential rain that kept everyone inside would have been a disaster of equal magnitude to a teenager as a tornado.

And it’s possible if she had begun sparking at that moment that’s what would have happened as you describe. It’s also possible that a week later she would have come upon a compulsion-lite weave to use on her parents so they would be less cautious of declaring when it was okay to go outside. IMO it’s more likely that a young girl would see her parents decisions as the roadblock to overcome. Unless, of course, there is an actual active weather disaster happening in that moment … feels like most young people are more likely to beg their parents on a daily basis for the permission they seek and come upon a “trick” rather than go about manipulating large scale weather patterns on accident. What I keep coming back to here is that these things happen in the moment and seem to nearly universally effect a day to day routine for the person, like begging your dad for something or sitting for a week with a sick child etc… I’d easily accept someone sitting inside praying for the rain/snow to stop so they could do something outside, but for most people it’s far more likely that they find themselves in circumstances like Nynaeve or Theodrin did.


That might be a cultural thing as much as anything else. Altarans in general seem to thrive on telling outsiders where to head in.

Is it or is it something that shaped the culture around it? Chicken or Egg since the Kin came into being at roughly the same time as the current culture and worked exceptionally hard to keep what they were doing under the radar.


That's not the same as weather control, that actually seems to be one of the go-to manifestations of channeling, and one of the most-cited combat uses, aside from fire. No one is going to know who did it for the actual weather stuff that the Sea Folk use, like favorable precipitation and temperature conditions. Hell, they probably wouldn't even notice a series of nice days, since most people tend to see those as the default. The storm staying away until Pa manages to finish fixing the roof on the barn, or the early frosts holding off long enough to get those last crops in - that's what people expect and hope will happen, because it has been known to do so naturally.

Maybe, maybe not, but the Power tends to manifest in nearly everyone in deeply personal ways, we can look to the Reds tactics to find male wilders here … overly lucky men isn’t actually about “luck” it’s about a boy who unknowingly used the OP to benefit himself in some way. Falling down a flight of stairs without injury, or the storm turning at just the right moment, the tornado veering another direction and missing the house … all plausible, but also with Wilders of both sexes we know that they eventually either create a block to manage control, or they begin to die. Again, most of these instances seem to focus in on an urgent need. Enough fear or anger and it doesn’t seem unlikely that little Jancy would be calling down lightening to kill bandits or Trollocs charging the farm house.


But why would that same mindset not apply to weather working?

Because weather changing is far more likely to have a very broad effect for the entire community in most instances. Healing probably mostly occurs in a similar fashion as to what we saw with Nynaeve, she supposed to be healing these people anyway so the idea that someone leaves her house and are no longer sick is an easy logical leap for anyone. On the other hand, if the tornado always takes a dramatic turn when it’s heading to Jancy’s house people may start to realize something odd is happening. One time people will tend to forget about, but with something like the weather if it’s happening a lot it’s hard to miss.


What on earth do you suppose women do? Watch soaps all day? Go shopping? Women also do farm work. They are maintaining the family gardens and milking cows and caring for chickens while the men are out guarding the sheep herds and working in the tabac fields. The female role on a farm is typically far more diverse and generalist, while men tend to specialize in the major heavy labor projects. That's why in rural restaurants, they call a breakfast meal that is heavy on carbs & protein a "farmer's breakfast". The men had to do the huge and vital heavy labor or the relatively dangerous stuff, while the women did everything else. To suggest that women or children were somehow isolated from such things as the effect of weather on crops is a huge stretch. .

The women aren’t in the fields with plows or repairing equipment or roofing. They are likely cooking, tending the young and the domestic animals, repairing household items and probably keeping the home garden … point being they are not as exposed to the elements as the men in the society. Not to say they aren’t outside, but their tasks, to your point, are less labor intensive and thus less restricted by severe weather. Ma can still darn socks if it’s raining or make dinner when it’s a blizzard, but Pa and the boys are at risk out in the fields if a sudden storm hits etc.


Not really. Men would be more likely to think of farming in terms of the back-breaking labor, and how to shorten or reduce that, I would think. Remember Rand's manifestation of channeling in Egwene's test? He blasted a stump that he was having difficulty removing with muscle power.

Exactly my point. He’s frustrated and lashes out with the Power.

And then there is Rand and his turning to lightning strikes early in his channeling career. And he sucks at the weather, which is probably unrelated. The clear sky is often cited as evidence of the channeling behind lightning.

Yes, one of the things Reds look for is random events that don’t fit the circumstances such as lightning on a clear day … a sign of a channeler.

She's not violent, and IIRC, Fire is a component of lightning weaves, so it would be more likely to occur to men for that reason.

I’m certain there are many ways to weave lightning, men and women can accomplish the same things to the same degree so it seems likely that a woman might use Water or Air in some way if necessary. Is she really non-violent? She seems to have a pretty big violent streak in her actually. She walked around town thumping people with a stick when we first met her


But until someone like that shows up, why would a woman using the Power without knowing what she is doing, limit her choice of abilities for fear of a sister showing up?

Because it’s ingrained into the folklore of the entire society? Stories abound about Aes Sedai and the Forsaken and men who can Channel. The most powerful organization around is pretty much centered on finding “outlawed” channelers … men simply because they are men, but women fear being scooped up and forced to go to the Tower too … is it daily, of course not, but look at the immediate reaction to strangers in the TR and how the children were shut down and told to hush up when the words Aes Sedai and Warder came up, a mix of fear and disbelief, then when it’s confirmed an angry mob out to protect themselves from a perceived threat. If common folk didn’t fear Aes Sedai they might have looked to Moiraine and Lan as protectors not the cause of the problem.


And to be fair, I hate bringing in "RJ said so" as the reason for how or why something works or happens (not citing him as an authority, mind you, just begging the question of functions and motivations within the story itself).

Naturally … as I said, I’m just exploring the question for the sake of doing it, I’m not really all that married to the idea 


Or a perverse fascination with the same, like firefighters who become arsonists.

Sort of in reverse is what I’m getting at … an arsonist who becomes a firefighter so they have more opportunity to be around fires.


But that's centuries, we're talking about. I'd think it was the sort of thing that came later in her career, when her rep and status prevented some victims from complaining, and caused them to be less listened to when they did mention it. If she indulged early, it would probably have been with her first big Healing cases, especially because she seems to consider her pleasures her due and a fair price for her services. And I just realized I am getting way too into the mindset of a psychopath & serial offender....

Was it though? I don’t recall ever being told how old Semirhage was before the WoP … or how long before she got caught out for what she was doing. Clearly she spent a LOT of time experimenting, but if she was already long gone before the Bore it’s possible that she was doing this for a very long time. Most Channelers are mid-late teens when they begin, and RJ liked to tell us that the Forsaken were simply bad people from the start, I don’t think it’s a huge stretch for Semirhage to have been essentially born a sociopath and even as a small child finding pleasure in others pain. We see it in modern day society with most serial killers having violent episodes even in early childhood.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 19/09/2016 at 08:48:08 PM
Reply to message
One last OP theory - 14/09/2016 04:17:51 PM 718 Views
Re: One last OP theory - 15/09/2016 02:12:12 PM 453 Views
Re: One last OP theory - 15/09/2016 08:58:09 PM 389 Views
Re: One last OP theory - 16/09/2016 12:35:22 AM 396 Views
Re: One last OP theory - 16/09/2016 09:44:34 PM 370 Views
Re: One last OP theory - 18/09/2016 05:09:16 AM 400 Views
Re: One last OP theory - 19/09/2016 06:48:30 PM 398 Views
I'll concede the rest, but not Nynaeve. - 20/09/2016 12:11:39 AM 446 Views
I actually agree with this (at least mostly) - 20/09/2016 12:41:55 AM 390 Views
Back at you - 20/09/2016 11:31:04 PM 388 Views
Re: Back at you - 21/09/2016 03:39:20 AM 349 Views

Reply to Message