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Re: One last OP theory Cannoli Send a noteboard - 18/09/2016 05:09:16 AM

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As a sidenote, The Seanchan foretelling was always an anomaly to me, it implies that even Talents that are seemingly random can be trained, which is at least somewhat backed up by the little pieces we’ve seen from the AoL, but it also seems kind of out of place to me … how would the Seanchan be able to do this with damane when the punishments for misspeaking are so severe? Given the nature of how Seanchan viewed damane why would they even try?
The view them as tools and animals. Even the reluctance to use Healing isn't universal, it seems to be a function of what that cultural perception of damane means to an individual. Some people love getting "doggy kisses" from a pet while others find letting an animal lick your mouth to be beyond disgusting.

Anyway, the issues with misspeaking among the Seanchan are all about presuming to speak. If a noble or owner or otherwise superior person tells you to speak, you do. It's not necessarily either the same type of Foretelling as wetlanders are seen to do, since Lidya gave Tuon hers in response to a request to tell her fortune (which was the reason why she remained under the veil under leaving Mat, which had a lot of ramifications for her entire arc in the weeks after landing, and due to her marriage, presumably the rest of her life) she was sei mosiev because she acted against the damane who was merely obeying orders. That implies that lashing out against a damane in such a cases would not be normal practices. An awful lot of people seem to bring their own preconceptions of how slavery works to blame the Seanchan for things we absolutely never see them do, or take extreme interpretations of comments or incidents. For instance, I read someone getting all in a high dudgeon because of Tuon's comment to Mat about staying away from the damane so no one thinks he's a pervert who likes to sleep with them. This commenter took the comment to mean that this was a common practice of the Seanchan, when Tuon's comment is pretty much exactly what you would say to someone from another culture who doesn't see the harm in hanging around a playground watching the kids. If boinking damane is such a common thing, or even acceptable to the Seanchan, why would Tuon say "You would not want anyone to think you're perverted. The fact that she felt the need to explain that this fetish even existed means they don't see it as typical or normal, and Tuon's words have a stronger connotation of severe social consequences, rather than a winked-at vice, whose forbidden status is only honored in the breech.

Anway, if a damane can tell a fortune upon request, maybe they use some sort of aid or drill to put them into an appropriate state of receptivity. Wetlanders didn't think unweaving was practicable. There's no reason that Foretellings can't be managed as well. In the case of the unweaving, it wasn't even a One Power technique, merely mental discipline and practice. I'd bet Elayne's aptitude for reverse engineering was the biggest contributing factor to her doing much better than Aviendha on their respective first attempts.


From the other women we’ve seen with the Talent it was totally unconscious in how it came to them, Gitata, Elaida, Nicola and Min (assuming that’s what she does) had no way of identifying when it came upon them and in at least Nicola’s case she didn’t even know what she had said. Dreaming seems more like a trainable ability than Foretelling.
The variety of manifestations suggests rather to me that it just might be trainable, since there are plainly different ways to do the thing. If the form of expression can vary, what else about it can?

I’m not talking about a conscious decision or something she in anyway even realized. I’m saying it’s like the gesture thing. Your first exposure pretty much sets the neural pathways and determines what you can do. In both Elayne and Egwene’s case they first really witnessed Healing as active channelers under circumstances that were stressful and made them think it was practically impossible, imprinting on them an weaker level of ability even though they later had immense strength and skill and all the flow affinity etc necessary to easily perform the weaves.
I don't know. At their first meeting, Rand noted that her treatment of his hands was reminiscent of Nynaeve's, implying that she was using the power in some way. She was never called a wilder or anything, nor was any references made to that incident (though IMO, her Healing Nynaeve's black eye from Latrelle while she was fighting Moghedian in T'A'R for the first time, might have been a way of settling that issue for readers who had that same interpretation), so it's impossible to say what she actually did. Maybe there is some way for a channeler to augment natural processes without actually channeling, somehow sharing a fragment of whatever it is about her that extends their lifespan.

This actually backs up the point I’m making. When exposed to Jorin her first feelings were amazement/awe and she was excited by the prospect of learning how this was done. Most women are naturally stronger in Air, but clearly not all women are masters at weather manipulation. We know that Aviendha was impressed by all the water and rain etc in the wetlands and essentially first became a channeler right at this same time … maybe that had an effect on her.
But why would she then be put off by something which was already an area of interest for her?

I’d say this was Sanderson’s ham-handed way of trying to impress on us that Yukiri was Talented with Traveling. I didn’t say it was a good example 
I suppose with him, that goes without saying.
Maybe, but are the women who care about such things likely to go to the Tower?
Yes and no. My point was that no one would NOT care about such things in such a society. Maybe some AoL types like Graendal (which might also explain why they were not as good as the Sea Folk - once they had the weather under control, not to mention climate controlled buildings, it became something they ignored). Not every woman who cared about the weather would want to go to the Tower, but every woman who would want to go to the Tower, would be one of those people who care about the weather. Because she is a person living in a pre-industrial time period.
I’d argue that Aes Sedai don’t exactly attract women who want to do a whole ton to help their communities, most seem pretty much self-absorbed and go to the Tower to gain power in some capacity. Nynaeve’s job was to predict weather, not affect it, there’s a big difference there.

In that she, and anyone else, had no idea it was even possible. The means would be unclear, but the desire present. Like making someone obey your wishes, or hear by remote, which are the two most common wilder tricks, and just as conceptually impossible as changing the weather.
If she had suddenly started making it rain or get warmer she was at far greater risk of people figuring out what was going on than a few miraculous cures performed by someone who was trained to heal people. Most Wilders end up with pretty significant blocks that don’t go away until someone beats it out of them (either literally or figuratively), manipulating the weather might crop up from time to time in Wilders, but given how Wilders tend to first come to the Source it seems like we wouldn’t see this unless the circumstances allowed, something like suddenly needing to stop a flood or a tornado or something, seems far less likely than a young girl on the verge of touching the Source desperately wanting the young man to like her or hear what her mother was saying to a friend behind closed doors or help the farmer with a broken arm. All far more likely day-to-day events for the majority of WoT-ers
No, they are not that much more likely. You're still thinking like a modern person, for whom only the most extreme weather is an issue. An unseasonal frost, or a spring with a little too much rain or a summer without quite enough, could ruin a crop, and even if you aren't going to starve, might have to do without a particular food item one year. A lot of teenagers would definitely have motivations to change the weather when your whole social life depends on being able to go outside. Don't you think there were a whole bunch of girls with crushes or general romantic aspirations who were hoping with every fiber of their beings that the weather would warm up enough to celebrate Beltine that winter, immediately before EotW? Being able to walk around in public showing off that braid was the culmination of Egwene's lifelong ambition at that point in the story! A cold spring that refused to come, or a week of torrential rain that kept everyone inside would have been a disaster of equal magnitude to a teenager as a tornado.

Not really, the women who are actively trying to conceal that they are using the OP have no trouble hiding it behind herbs and the appearance of some level of mundane training. Ebu Dari Wise Women are famous everywhere for their uncanny abilities, yet no one whispered about the OP for the last thousand years.
That might be a cultural thing as much as anything else. Altarans in general seem to thrive on telling outsiders where to head in.
But if lightning started striking villagers who pissed off the local farm girl you bet your ass folks would start questioning it.

That's not the same as weather control, that actually seems to be one of the go-to manifestations of channeling, and one of the most-cited combat uses, aside from fire. No one is going to know who did it for the actual weather stuff that the Sea Folk use, like favorable precipitation and temperature conditions. Hell, they probably wouldn't even notice a series of nice days, since most people tend to see those as the default. The storm staying away until Pa manages to finish fixing the roof on the barn, or the early frosts holding off long enough to get those last crops in - that's what people expect and hope will happen, because it has been known to do so naturally.
Sure it’s possible to hide some of these effects if the individual is doing it with her own full knowledge, but most of these Wilders have no idea that they are even behind what’s going on just as Nynaeve had to be pressed extremely hard to even admit it was a possibility and no one in the Two Rivers ever suspected what she could do, even Tam who had clearly been exposed to Aes Sedai.

But why would that same mindset not apply to weather working?
It actually seems more likely that a male Wilder would be the one to affect the weather since the work that is most effected by the weather would be centered around male tasks such as tending the farm.
What on earth do you suppose women do? Watch soaps all day? Go shopping? Women also do farm work. They are maintaining the family gardens and milking cows and caring for chickens while the men are out guarding the sheep herds and working in the tabac fields. The female role on a farm is typically far more diverse and generalist, while men tend to specialize in the major heavy labor projects. That's why in rural restaurants, they call a breakfast meal that is heavy on carbs & protein a "farmer's breakfast". The men had to do the huge and vital heavy labor or the relatively dangerous stuff, while the women did everything else. To suggest that women or children were somehow isolated from such things as the effect of weather on crops is a huge stretch.
Despite natural flow strengths male gender roles in agrarian culture lends itself to this IMO.
Not really. Men would be more likely to think of farming in terms of the back-breaking labor, and how to shorten or reduce that, I would think. Remember Rand's manifestation of channeling in Egwene's test? He blasted a stump that he was having difficulty removing with muscle power.
And then there is Rand and his turning to lightning strikes early in his channeling career.
And he sucks at the weather, which is probably unrelated. The clear sky is often cited as evidence of the channeling behind lightning.
Nynaeve didn’t start using lightning until well after she was aware of what she was really doing.
She's not violent, and IIRC, Fire is a component of lightning weaves, so it would be more likely to occur to men for that reason.
You are probably right about the Tower being an abstract, but not so much so that it wasn’t amongst the first things the Two Rivers children assumed about Moiraine and Lan when they first appeared.
But until someone like that shows up, why would a woman using the Power without knowing what she is doing, limit her choice of abilities for fear of a sister showing up?
That’s a fair point … and one I don’t disagree with … I guess I’m just looking for a mental exercise in WHY they are related. I don’t think it really has much of an effect on the story or the theme’s RJ was hitting, just me trying to wrap my brain around the fact that the relationship exists.
And to be fair, I hate bringing in "RJ said so" as the reason for how or why something works or happens (not citing him as an authority, mind you, just begging the question of functions and motivations within the story itself).

Possibly, I’m just extrapolating from the theme of personalities and abilities matching up … Kind of goes together that someone with great medical knowledge and skill would have a much better understanding of how to cause pain in the human body.

Or a perverse fascination with the same, like firefighters who become arsonists.
From what we know of Semirhage she was “long gone” well before the Bore was opened so it seems as though she has had these inclinations for most of her life.
But that's centuries, we're talking about. I'd think it was the sort of thing that came later in her career, when her rep and status prevented some victims from complaining, and caused them to be less listened to when they did mention it. If she indulged early, it would probably have been with her first big Healing cases, especially because she seems to consider her pleasures her due and a fair price for her services. And I just realized I am getting way too into the mindset of a psychopath & serial offender....
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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