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Re: A few comments... guttering flame Send a noteboard - 12/11/2009 09:38:29 AM
Do we know how much time passed between Graendal's PoV in the prologue and her death? Because it's quite possible that Graendal was indeed still plotting how to break Rand (not an easy deed), since Rand just came to Arad Doman. It make sense that she would first try to get spies close to Rand to study him, since we learned in the beginning of TGS that she only knows Rand from pictures (which makes it quite difficult to predict how Rand will act).


Well, I noticed that Rand's timeline seemed further progressed than the timeline of his two friends. He mentions Mat's presence in Caemlin while Mat is still on the road as far as his chapters are concerned. There is also the tedious length of time required for the locating, capturing and retrieving of the members of the merchant council. And then there is the gathering of starving people into the city which takes time. I believe several weeks were mentioned a couple of times. He keeps complaining about how long this is taking him. So I'm assuming that Rand spent more than a month there.

And Graendal is not ignorant about Rand. We are told repeatedly how extensive her spy net is. Not keeping an eye on the most important player in the world is unthinkable. She also has the tales she received from Sammael and the rest of the forsaken and I would guess she talked to Darkfriends in his service like Elza and others. The plan I presented does not require information that is hard to acquire. For example it didn't involve using Tam against him. Rand's distrust of Aes Sedai has been shouted from the rooftops as loud as Rand could make it, Semiharge's ability to cause pain is well known to Graendal, the need for True Power to break free of the male adam would be easy to deduce from its basic function (controling a channeler) and the negative effects of the True Power on its wielders would be well known to one of the Chosen.

Furthermore, I doubt that the DO, as the "ur-control freak", would agree to a plan, where he gives his archenemy, the Dragon, access to his True Power.


And yet he did. The thing with the True Power is that it has someone on the other side watching what you do with it. It works more like being granted wishes than like tapping a source of power. If the Dark One didn't like what Rand was planning to do with it he would have taken the True Power away from Rand.

Besides that, we learned in the series that the Forsaken aren't that clever. Therefore I'm certain that those theories that Graendal's "death" was just a big ruse and actually everything goes exactly according to Graendal's brilliant masterplan will prove to be wrong the ToM.


We'll just have to wait and see. And you know, Graendal has a life insurance. An Asmodean caliber Life Insurance.

It doesn't make much sense that RJ would trick us with Graendal's death so late in the series, if it's just easier to let Rand kill her for good and concentrate on other things. After all, what would be the point? To show that the hero of the series, Rand, actually couldn't outsmart Graendal, because Graendal is truly the most clever character around and easily outsmarted Rand. Therefore Rand or someone else has to come up yet with an even cleverer plan to kill Graendal in her new lair, wherever it is.


The plan wasn't that clever. It was mainly built on Rand becoming hard enough to wipe out that entire mansion. And I would think it would be an appropriate lesson that such a dark and reckless plan would turn out to be useless. Why would we need yet another example of how Rand can beat the forsaken? We had plenty of those already. If she lives she doesn't need to be THAT prominent in the rest of the series. She can have a cameo or two showing her for example dying meaninglessly in the Last Battle or or any number of other things.

This doesn't fit at all with RJ's perception of the Forsaken as flawed people (Semirhage can be broken, Graendal can be outsmarted), would be a completely redundant twist and just reduce the significance of Rand's act to kill Graendal.


Why redundant twist? You just said it would yet another one in a monotonous list of forsaken failures. And I would say that it wouldn't reduce the significance of Rand's act but to the contrary show how reckless and wrong it really was. As it now stands he's done something wrong but the justification that he killed the evil Graendal and that anyone else killed was a mindless robot makes it not so big a wrong.

The events happened too quickly and partly by chance, namely that Nynaeve found Graendal's Compulsed spy in time, that she was then able to remove the Compulsion on the youth, that Rand could actually still force him to tell the location of Graendal's lair before his death, and that Rand then invented his unorthodox method to kill Graendal and be sure of her death.

Graendal simply couldn't predict all this.


This whole discovered spy twist in the story smelled fishy to me as I said in the original post. He was staying for a considerable length of time near Rand in an easy to find place doing things that would inevitably draw the Dragon's attention to him. And then we have the fact that he knows the name of Graendal's mansion. Care to explain that?

If Graendal wanted to insure spies she sent wouldn't be able to tell things about her the solution wouldn't have been to make them flee when discovered but to immediately kill themselves, for example by swallowing their tongue. This whole plot doesn't make sense unless you assume there's more behind the scenes here.
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Graendal - 11/11/2009 11:02:33 AM 1367 Views
Nice post... thanks *NM* - 11/11/2009 12:27:27 PM 232 Views
A few comments... - 11/11/2009 04:03:56 PM 581 Views
Re: A few comments... - 12/11/2009 09:38:29 AM 552 Views
and it was also celarly said (at some point in the past) - 11/11/2009 05:57:01 PM 551 Views
She's dead. - 11/11/2009 06:09:49 PM 556 Views
Or is she? - 11/11/2009 08:18:34 PM 546 Views
Re: Or is she? - 11/11/2009 10:16:22 PM 509 Views
Re: Or is she? - 12/11/2009 10:12:42 AM 567 Views
Re: Or is she? - 12/11/2009 07:44:05 PM 542 Views
This conversation works best if you only read the titles. *NM* - 12/11/2009 08:02:11 PM 211 Views
Everyone knows the title is the heart of the argument - 13/11/2009 04:33:25 PM 429 Views
I've said the same before, and agree. *NM* - 11/11/2009 06:48:31 PM 215 Views
I agree! *NM* - 12/11/2009 07:19:46 PM 194 Views
Didn't RJ say in an interview a while back that no more Forsaken would be coming back? - 13/11/2009 04:19:01 PM 440 Views
But did she really go away? *NM* - 13/11/2009 04:28:27 PM 194 Views
Yes, she's gone. Your theory is far fetched to say the least. *NM* - 13/11/2009 05:05:30 PM 201 Views

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