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I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper. The Name With No Man Send a noteboard - 08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM
"The characterization is thin, with most characters having one trait, continually referred to in order to tell them apart"

Not all of them, obviously, Else Grinwold, for example, is intentionally shallow. But Mat is more than the roguish hero when adopting Olver or enjoying both the big cities and his travels to them, Perrin more than the simple blacksmith when directing the defense of Emond's Field or doting on Faile, Rand more than the reluctant hero when building universities and meting out impartial justice, to cite just a few examples just among the ta'veren.
That sums up Jordan. Exaggerating the depth of his prose and exalting him beyond belief is not something I'm going to engage in. I disagree, and strongly, with everything you've been writing. Jordan is crap. Jordan is a diversion. There is more depth to a kiddie pool than to Jordan. Sanderson may change that - indeed, I think he already HAS changed it to a certain degree - but it doesn't change reality. Wax poetic about parallels, allusions, allegories and analogies all you want but you're still grasping at straws.

Why do you read "crap" with less "depth than a kiddie pool"?
My opinion on this won't change, and I am thankful that most of the thinking world shares that opinion.

I'm thankful most of the rest of the world isn't as insultingly patronizing about it. You know I respect your scholarship, but I'd respect it more if you were less smugly condescending. It robs some of the impact when you seem to be more concerned with proving superiority than proving a point. I'm not your mother, nor am I blameless, but to paraphrase what I said elsewhere, I think RAFO would be better off if I, but not only I, were a bit less snide.
Furthermore, your use of Wikipedia is woefully inadequate for an in-depth discussion of antiquity. For the record, Wikipedia is NOT my source for information on these subjects. Let me provide you more information since you seem to rely entirely on Wikipedia:

Hey, I didn't introduce Wikipedia into this conversation, and when I did I made a conscious effort to involve not just Wikipedia, but independent scholarship cited there. Just because I copy the text of the First Amendment from a Wikipedia citation of the Constitution doesn't invalidate the cite, because it's not really from Wikipedia, that's just a convenient place to find it listed.
1. Manichaeism is NOT Gnosticism. Furthermore, I did not attempt to say that Manichaeism was based on one single omnipotent god. It drew from Zoroastrianism's duality. My fundamental point about Manichaeism, which you ignored in your rush to pseudo-sources, was that the Manichaean "good" god is stronger than the evil source. Good is destined to prevail in a Manichaean world.

I'm not convinced that's true, and even if it is, I'm also not convinced it's because good is inherently "stronger" rather than because man, as a species, is destined to choose good over evil in our capacity as the battleground for them.
2. Your etymology of Lilith is wrong, and I will indeed edit Wikipedia when I have the time. The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament by Koehler and Baumgartner, the academic standard, states the name comes from "Akk. lilu, lilitu and ardat lili, group of three storm demons < Sum. lil (Zimmern 69, AHw. 553b; Haussig Wb. 1:48, 275)". The formidable Dictionary of Deities and Demons of the Bible (the DDD), begins its entry on Lilith as follows "The Heb. term lilit as a demon in Isa 34:14 is connected by popular etymology with the word layla 'night'. But it is certainly to be considered a loan from Akk lilitu, which is ultimately derived from Sum lil." The DDD makes no reference whatsoever to any relationship between Lilith and Ishtar, except that the 3rd millennium BC epic "Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the Netherworld" has her making her lair in a tree that Ishtar had planted to make a throne for herself, but which became infested with terrible demons instead. She is compared with the Lamashtu, but not with Ishtar. Black and Green's Gods, Demons and Symbols of Mesopotamia contains no reference to Lilith in their entry on Ishtar, and vice-versa. Markham Gellar's Evil Demons, a treatise on Assyrian demonology, mentions no link. Gwendolyn Leick's Sex and Eroticism in Mesopotamian Literature contains no mention of a link. Samuel Noah Kramer, the doyen of Sumerian studies, mentions Lilith only in connection with her infestation of Inanna's tree in his exhaustive study Inanna: Queen of Heaven and Earth. Tzvi Abusch, expert on sorcery in ancient Mesopotamia, mentions no connection in either his Mesopotamian Witchcraft OR his Mesopotamian Magic. Your point about the moon in Wikipedia is a misreading of a misprint of an academic notation regarding the unrelated word itud.

Wikipedia's claims make no mention of the "layla" element in support of an association with night nor anything else, or rather, the only mention would be the PROTO-Semitic (i.e. pre-Hebraic) L-Y-L that could likely produce layla and many others. That is not the basis on which it says Lilith can be associated with the night (and/or as it also says with the wind.) Since you dispute the association of "itud" with the moon, and as a layman I'm limited to the online sources which all seem to translate it "moonlight" (more people for you to correct here: http://www.google.com/search?q=itud+sumerian&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rlz=1R1GGGL_en&client=firefox-a ) what is the correct translation? At the first link in the above search one John Alan Halloran has "iti6[UD.dNANNA]: moonlight" seemingly invoking both the moon and Inanna. Annoying fellow; he also maintains a "Sumerian Lexicon" here you might care to correct: http://www.scribd.com/doc/502645/Sumerian-Lexicon

The University of Pennsylvania also exhibits sore need of your services here:

http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e1228.html

Meanwhile, if you're suggesting the association of Lilith with sexually predatory wind demons who seduce and torment sleepers AT NIGHT is entirely based on false cognates, you've got the work of a lifetime to do.
4. Your point about Ba'al is farcical. It's like saying, "Well, I think he's talking about Belphegor. Just 'cause. It doesn't matter if Ba'alzamon sounds like Ba'alzephon." The name of the deity is Ba'al, and you are referring to Ba'al as worshipped by the Ammonites. It was, however, the same Ba'al worshipped on Mount Zaphon, and the same Ba'al who was worshipped in southern Cana'an and sometimes called Ba'al Zebul. Scholars are united in the assessment that Ba'al was one deity, not a variety of "different Ba'als". The name is a title, but it was a title used for the same deity everywhere.

If I erred in associating Amon Baal with the Baal Hammon of Carthage (and surely you can see that's the strongest phonetic association with Baalzamon) my apologies, though I believe it's a natural error in light of the Phoenicia-Carthage axis. Though disputed and fragmentary, I know, that's the baal to which flame mouthed child consuming Moloch seems best traced, and that also seems a better explanation than "it sounds cool" for Baalzamon chasing the Two Rivers boys with a flaming a mouth and eyes. That's the best association, to me, but, again, given the sheer number of baals in Mesopotamia and Palestine during the Bronze Age, and the opposition to all of them from the JHWH group whose deity is obviously associated with Jordan's Creator, if there is any such element Jordan would be foolish to restrict it to a single baal and exclude dozens of others.
I am weary of attempting to educate you about the ancient world. Wikipedia is a great source for popular information, but particularly with regard to antiquity it should not be relied upon. Your points would not withstand scrutiny in the academic world for one moment.

Perhaps not, but I never intended an academic treatise, nor an analysis (or lesson) on the Ancient World. I referenced seven distinct themes I perceive and acknowledged more exist (in fact, I believe I specifically told you elsewhere I entirely skipped the issue of cyclic time in which metempsychosis is so bound up, but F-T helpfully mentioned it for me here.) Now I've been reduced to discussing your field of expertise, and, no, I don't expect to "best" you there, but I didn't intend a competition either.
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The Wheel of Time's Great Themes, Edited to Include Those I See. - 06/12/2009 05:58:08 AM 821 Views
So, What Are They? - 06/12/2009 09:36:56 AM 552 Views
Putting names into a blender isn't the same as weaving together great themes. - 06/12/2009 03:17:05 PM 482 Views
No, Indeed It Is Not. - 06/12/2009 04:37:23 PM 378 Views
Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree. - 07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM 388 Views
It may not provide intrinsic value to you. But for me, yes. - 07/12/2009 06:06:40 AM 429 Views
Jordan May Not Always Execute It Well, But I Believe It's There (Now We Face Details in TGS.) - 07/12/2009 04:28:05 PM 540 Views
Read what Larry's Short History of Fantasy says about Jordan. - 07/12/2009 05:56:03 PM 457 Views
Oh some book says it, so it must be true! - 08/12/2009 05:57:14 AM 341 Views
I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper. - 08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM 450 Views
I'm done with this thread. - 08/12/2009 06:21:41 PM 363 Views
Goodbye then! *NM* - 08/12/2009 06:45:25 PM 130 Views
Fair Enough. - 08/12/2009 07:02:04 PM 736 Views
Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller... - 06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM 398 Views
It's a Popular, If Perhaps Suspicious, Claim. - 06/12/2009 04:55:25 PM 446 Views
Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion. - 08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM 380 Views
Amen to that. Lord of the Rings rules! - 08/12/2009 09:03:33 AM 345 Views
I've never been able to finish the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Too boring, with fairy tale characters - 09/12/2009 12:28:26 PM 341 Views
That Is a Great Shame. - 09/12/2009 01:27:44 PM 340 Views
I enjoyed the Silmarrilion though...the part about the Valar and their comparative strengths... - 09/12/2009 01:39:47 PM 333 Views
Tulkas Was All Brute Force. - 09/12/2009 02:48:46 PM 488 Views
That's.. too bad, I guess? - 09/12/2009 08:40:49 PM 330 Views
Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 08:48:32 AM 338 Views
Re: Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 04:56:07 PM 368 Views
Seems to me you've inverted it. - 08/12/2009 08:48:07 AM 328 Views
One Way or the Other Their WoT Origin Must Be the Stories We Know (Slight Spoiler Alert.) - 08/12/2009 03:18:30 PM 410 Views
I have no idea what you are trying to say, sorry. - 08/12/2009 08:12:35 PM 336 Views
I'll Try to Rephrase Then (Including the Spoiler. ) - 09/12/2009 12:49:55 PM 329 Views
I don't really see any "great" themes per se, just an enjoyable story, like the pulp serials. - 07/12/2009 03:32:43 PM 357 Views
*Agrees 100%* - 07/12/2009 06:04:31 PM 334 Views
I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 04:25:36 PM 318 Views
Re: I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 07:26:30 PM 330 Views
True, and That Can Be Very Hard to Separate. - 09/12/2009 01:14:57 PM 420 Views

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