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I'll Try to Rephrase Then (Including the Spoiler. ) The Name With No Man Send a noteboard - 09/12/2009 12:49:55 PM
RJ's use of the diverse character parallels isn't meant to make this story evoke those older tales, rather, it is using the circular time of the Wheel as an explanation for their origins.

They're all the same stories, only changed by the passing of time and turned into myth and legend, or the same core from a different turning of the Wheel.

Outside of the work itself, the stories have to have an origin at some level for Jordan to use them, because he obviously didn't just make up centuries old stories we all know so well. He got them from somewhere, if only subconsciously, and the first extant occurrence still known today is the origin in that respect, and in that respect it is those original stories of our collective heritage Jordan tries to evoke in TWoT.

However, Jordan may well be arguing that true time is cyclic (though I don't believe this MUST be his view) and if that's the case all bets are off. He could just mean to speak of the archetypes of our collective heritage, and if he does so in service of cyclic time there is no more "original" story in the real world than in Randland, because they're all looped and we can't point to a particular version of pervasive repeated mythos because they're all one. If we take this to extremes we could even say that, given indefinite time and indefinite space, Randland COULD BE Earth in 10,000 years, or 10 million, or some distant terrestrial planet in 10 billion. If anything's possible, if an infinite amount of time means EVERYTHING'S CERTAIN, then sooner or later TWoT will play out as a historical series of events, some place, some time, because anything you can imagine or can't does, sooner or later.

That seems going too far to me though, and I'm not entirely convinced Jordan's use of cyclic time is anything more than a conceit to serve a story that has other themes he does affirm. Ishy's oft stated goal is to break the Wheel of Time, and he verifies in TGS what I've always believed: His goal, and the DO's, is universal non-being, void, as the result of breaking the Wheel. But in TGS we see something else for the first time: Rand also wants to break the Wheel in a very real sense, to escape both his supposed destiny and that of the world not by avoidance but by facing and destroying the DO permanently. I think it's a fool's errand, but I thought the same of the Cleansing, and it would certainly be very interesting to see unfold. Can the world exist without the Creator's antithesis, if only in a confined state? How deep is the source of conflict, would the push/pull of the One Power's halves be enough, or is the DO required to prevent a static world as absent of life as the void the he would create if free? Perhaps a world without the DO is so untenable, so incompatible with the Creator's goals, that in killing the DO Rand would be assaulting the Wheel itself, and thus replace the DO, be imprisoned indefinitely alone longing for oblivion more than at any point since he accepted his prophesied fate to die in torment saving and breaking the world at the same time.

Again, it seems as if there are a lot of possibilities to consider, and the potential for a very deep and serious discussion, but I know that's only an illusion since, after all, there are no great deep themes in TWoT. In fact, never mind. If anyone needs me I'll be contemplating my navel.
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The Wheel of Time's Great Themes, Edited to Include Those I See. - 06/12/2009 05:58:08 AM 821 Views
So, What Are They? - 06/12/2009 09:36:56 AM 552 Views
Putting names into a blender isn't the same as weaving together great themes. - 06/12/2009 03:17:05 PM 482 Views
No, Indeed It Is Not. - 06/12/2009 04:37:23 PM 378 Views
Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree. - 07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM 388 Views
It may not provide intrinsic value to you. But for me, yes. - 07/12/2009 06:06:40 AM 429 Views
Jordan May Not Always Execute It Well, But I Believe It's There (Now We Face Details in TGS.) - 07/12/2009 04:28:05 PM 540 Views
Read what Larry's Short History of Fantasy says about Jordan. - 07/12/2009 05:56:03 PM 457 Views
Oh some book says it, so it must be true! - 08/12/2009 05:57:14 AM 341 Views
I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper. - 08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM 449 Views
I'm done with this thread. - 08/12/2009 06:21:41 PM 363 Views
Goodbye then! *NM* - 08/12/2009 06:45:25 PM 130 Views
Fair Enough. - 08/12/2009 07:02:04 PM 736 Views
Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller... - 06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM 398 Views
It's a Popular, If Perhaps Suspicious, Claim. - 06/12/2009 04:55:25 PM 446 Views
Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion. - 08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM 380 Views
Amen to that. Lord of the Rings rules! - 08/12/2009 09:03:33 AM 345 Views
I've never been able to finish the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Too boring, with fairy tale characters - 09/12/2009 12:28:26 PM 341 Views
That Is a Great Shame. - 09/12/2009 01:27:44 PM 340 Views
I enjoyed the Silmarrilion though...the part about the Valar and their comparative strengths... - 09/12/2009 01:39:47 PM 333 Views
Tulkas Was All Brute Force. - 09/12/2009 02:48:46 PM 488 Views
That's.. too bad, I guess? - 09/12/2009 08:40:49 PM 330 Views
Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 08:48:32 AM 338 Views
Re: Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 04:56:07 PM 368 Views
Seems to me you've inverted it. - 08/12/2009 08:48:07 AM 328 Views
One Way or the Other Their WoT Origin Must Be the Stories We Know (Slight Spoiler Alert.) - 08/12/2009 03:18:30 PM 410 Views
I have no idea what you are trying to say, sorry. - 08/12/2009 08:12:35 PM 336 Views
I'll Try to Rephrase Then (Including the Spoiler. ) - 09/12/2009 12:49:55 PM 329 Views
I don't really see any "great" themes per se, just an enjoyable story, like the pulp serials. - 07/12/2009 03:32:43 PM 357 Views
*Agrees 100%* - 07/12/2009 06:04:31 PM 334 Views
I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 04:25:36 PM 318 Views
Re: I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 07:26:30 PM 330 Views
True, and That Can Be Very Hard to Separate. - 09/12/2009 01:14:57 PM 420 Views

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