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Your sources are misleading... The Voice of Lews Therin - 17/04/2004 01:23:14 PM

While it is true that most scholars believe that Jesus existed, outside of Biblical sources and Church histories written hundreds of years after the fact there is virtually NO information about him as a historical figure. Let me just briefly comment on your list:

Suetonius, Claudias 25.4. De Vita Caesarum
SP: Claudius. This probably has nothing to do with Jesus. All he says is "Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit" - literally: Because the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome. Scholars generally do not think that this "Chrestus" is Jesus, particularly considering that he later spells the term Christiani when referring to Jesus's followers in Nero. Note also that Suetonius was writing at least 70 years after the crucifixion.

Life of Nero 16.2
All that is said here is "Afflicti suppliciis Christiani, genus hominum superstitionis novae ac maleficae" or "The Christians, a class of people of a new and maleficent superstition, were inflicted with punishments." There is no information about Christ himself.

Tacitus, Annals xv.44.
The quotation here is a bit longer about the Christians being blamed for the great fire of Rome during the reign of Nero, but all that is said about Christ is this: "Auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat" or "The man who gave his name [i.e., to the religion], Christ, was put to death by torture under Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius." But the superstition did not remain in Judaea, the "origin of its evil," but spread throughout the Empire. Written only c. 112 AD.

Pliny the Younger, Epistles x.96-97.
Pliny merely asks the Emperor Trajan for clarification as to what the crime of being Christian is and what punishment it entails. There are no details about the faith or its founder. Written exactly in 112 AD.

Josephus, Antiquities 18.116-19
This passage has been heavily tampered with and it is uncertain whether Josephus wrote ANY of it, given his pro-Roman sympathies (he certainly did NOT write the short, terse sentence "He was the Messiah" given how he writes about the Messiah in the rest of his works).

Eusebius, Origen and Justin, aside from having written even later than the above-mentioned sources, are also devout Christians who are repeating what they have read in the Gospels. They are NOT contemporaries and should not be taken as such.

The citations to the Talmud which you provided are even less helpful. One "reference" to Jesus is to Yeshu ben Pantera (Jesus son of Pantera...didn't know heavy metal had been around that long), and the only reference that provides any factual information is the short one which says "On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu because he practiced sorcery and enticed Israel astray."

This is not exactly copious evidence of Jesus's teachings, his followers or the basis of Christianity as a belief system. About all you have written within 100 years of his death, outside the writings of believers, is a short phrase by Suetonius in Nero about Christians, a short paragraph in Tacitus that says he was put to death by Pilate, a couple of very suspect remarks in a text by Josephus and a line in the Talmud.

That's not as much as your list implied.


Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.

Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth

The Voice of Lews Therin

Find out what WOT really means...




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Evidence apart from the Bible of Jesus - 17/04/2004 10:11:22 AM 503 Views
Why? - 17/04/2004 10:39:29 AM 61 Views
Pays to know your competition - 17/04/2004 10:41:02 AM 1 Views
*shakes head sadly* - 17/04/2004 10:41:15 AM 1 Views
I blame that pom - 17/04/2004 11:12:30 AM 1 Views
I've posted twenty odd sources to get you started. - 17/04/2004 11:38:02 AM 89 Views
(Blank subject) - 17/04/2004 12:09:24 PM 59 Views
It really should read Jesus of the Bible as the Bible is not - 17/04/2004 01:07:26 PM 54 Views
Your sources are misleading... - 17/04/2004 01:23:14 PM 1 Views
Thank you - 17/04/2004 01:39:48 PM 1 Views
Thanks *NM* - 17/04/2004 01:40:12 PM 1 Views
Thanks - 17/04/2004 01:41:14 PM 1 Views
Actually, I just missed out my commas - 17/04/2004 01:46:03 PM 1 Views
There are no contemporary, non-Christian records whatsoever - 17/04/2004 02:08:14 PM 1 Views
Tacitus wrote at 100 AD--almost certainly just repeating a story. - 17/04/2004 03:38:02 PM 1 Views
There are none from his time. - 17/04/2004 03:41:46 PM 1 Views
Especialyl when you consider - 17/04/2004 03:46:12 PM 1 Views
You're so... English. - 17/04/2004 05:52:33 PM 1 Views
Meh. - 17/04/2004 06:05:30 PM 1 Views
Sans those details, what do you have? - 17/04/2004 06:12:41 PM 1 Views
- 17/04/2004 07:15:33 PM 1 Views
True enough - 17/04/2004 07:18:04 PM 1 Views
Re: Your sources are misleading... - 17/04/2004 07:23:44 PM 1 Views
But contemporary info is what's important. - 17/04/2004 07:42:46 PM 1 Views
You haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about - 17/04/2004 07:55:47 PM 1 Views
and your dumb ass opinion flies in the face of every historical - 17/04/2004 08:08:50 PM 1 Views
He asked for outside sources... - 17/04/2004 08:17:03 PM 1 Views
Well, not EVERYONE... - 17/04/2004 08:25:15 PM 1 Views
Thanks for the unsubstantiated insults. - 17/04/2004 08:25:58 PM 1 Views
Fair enough, not literally "everyone." *NM* - 17/04/2004 08:27:17 PM 1 Views
They are simply truths - 17/04/2004 08:31:34 PM 1 Views
Let's put it this way: - 17/04/2004 08:35:30 PM 1 Views
josefis - 17/04/2004 09:17:43 PM 22 Views
Josephus... - 17/04/2004 09:21:30 PM 1 Views
Is it that time of the month? (yes you profile says male) - 17/04/2004 10:21:30 PM 1 Views
Furthermore here is a link that shows my statement - 17/04/2004 10:23:28 PM 1 Views
Furthermore why the hostility to a statement? - 17/04/2004 10:24:49 PM 1 Views
Furthermore I must state youre a spent condom. - 17/04/2004 10:25:12 PM 1 Views
Well, it is not a belief that appears to be held by mainstream - 17/04/2004 11:03:24 PM 1 Views
Of course 18th century - 17/04/2004 11:14:24 PM 1 Views
f*ck you're an idiot - 17/04/2004 11:47:37 PM 1 Views
You have done academic work for a journal edited - 17/04/2004 11:57:06 PM 1 Views
Never mind. *NM* - 18/04/2004 12:05:37 AM 1 Views
My speciality was 1500-1900 years after 30 CE/AD, but... - 18/04/2004 12:53:02 AM 45 Views
It does make sense (edit) - 18/04/2004 12:55:20 AM 1 Views
so many edits *NM* - 18/04/2004 01:05:18 AM 1 Views
On account of the debate regarding the 'historicity of Jesus' - 18/04/2004 01:41:10 AM 31 Views
Well...yes. *NM* - 18/04/2004 01:42:33 AM 1 Views
Re: You have done academic work for a journal edited - 18/04/2004 08:57:13 AM 1 Views
Re: Let's put it this way: - 18/04/2004 09:05:50 AM 1 Views
Re: f*ck you're an idiot - 18/04/2004 09:08:41 AM 1 Views
What you wrote makes lots of sense. *NM* - 18/04/2004 09:11:02 AM 1 Views
Re: He asked for outside sources... - 18/04/2004 09:24:39 AM 1 Views
I actually thought WW was reasoned and made good points. - 18/04/2004 09:32:13 AM 1 Views
Dear Weirmon and Logic Ninja, may I interuppt this a moment? - 18/04/2004 12:48:31 PM 1 Views
Very nice. ~applauds~ *NM* - 18/04/2004 03:03:50 PM 1 Views
I can't draw a conclusion without a PhD? - 18/04/2004 03:12:38 PM 1 Views
A completely useless exercise. - 18/04/2004 03:30:34 PM 35 Views
Melodrama does not suit you. Try being less flamboyant. *NM* - 18/04/2004 04:54:14 PM 1 Views
Youre a moron. *NM* - 18/04/2004 04:55:24 PM 1 Views
Youre the one who began with the insults. Remember that. - 18/04/2004 04:56:23 PM 1 Views
No wonder the Scottish lost to the English. - 18/04/2004 04:58:13 PM 1 Views
Ignorant? - 18/04/2004 04:59:22 PM 1 Views
Obviously all the intelligent Scots immigrated to the US *NM* - 18/04/2004 05:00:18 PM 1 Views
do you understand the meaning of the word may? - 18/04/2004 05:05:21 PM 1 Views
Not all historians - 18/04/2004 05:10:16 PM 1 Views
here's why you are an idiot - 18/04/2004 05:14:05 PM 1 Views
Thing is... - 18/04/2004 06:25:05 PM 1 Views
You were not insulting. - 18/04/2004 06:49:01 PM 1 Views
You are leaning towards racism, here. - 18/04/2004 06:53:23 PM 1 Views
Oh, you were plenty insulting. - 18/04/2004 07:06:38 PM 1 Views
An insult for an insult. - 18/04/2004 07:13:33 PM 1 Views
Leave now. - 18/04/2004 07:14:27 PM 1 Views
The statement linked his intelligence to race - 18/04/2004 07:22:23 PM 1 Views
That's a pretty pointless approach. - 18/04/2004 07:39:46 PM 1 Views
I see it as creating balance within the world. *NM* - 18/04/2004 11:11:34 PM 1 Views
He is the same race as me - white. - 18/04/2004 11:13:52 PM 1 Views
That's a minor technicality - 18/04/2004 11:48:54 PM 1 Views
I have tried to be patient with you - 19/04/2004 01:16:44 AM 1 Views
By all means, tolerate - 19/04/2004 02:02:25 AM 1 Views
Thank you - 19/04/2004 05:10:09 AM 1 Views
I hate to say it - 19/04/2004 05:19:59 AM 1 Views
Don't be a complete moron - 19/04/2004 05:21:38 AM 1 Views
Not for me it isn't - 19/04/2004 05:34:44 AM 1 Views
He has greatly influenced history - 19/04/2004 05:36:11 AM 1 Views
Some source are certainly stronger than others - 19/04/2004 08:29:49 AM 1 Views
Not threatened at all by the possibility - 19/04/2004 08:35:33 AM 1 Views
*Takes counsel to heart* - 19/04/2004 08:39:16 AM 1 Views
Re: Thing is... - 19/04/2004 11:31:27 AM 1 Views
lol - 19/04/2004 01:06:56 PM 1 Views
lol *NM* - 19/04/2004 01:07:40 PM 1 Views
Re: Yeah... - 19/04/2004 01:08:43 PM 1 Views
I dont see it as racism,but who says im white? - 19/04/2004 01:10:54 PM 1 Views
I appreciate what your doing, but as i said in a previous post - 19/04/2004 01:17:50 PM 1 Views
... - 19/04/2004 01:39:43 PM 1 Views
Hardly - 19/04/2004 01:47:10 PM 1 Views
Your friend is going to lose that argument - 19/04/2004 03:57:05 PM 1 Views
you're in the wrong here - 19/04/2004 08:27:42 PM 1 Views
oh dear - 19/04/2004 08:32:55 PM 1 Views
perhaps - 19/04/2004 08:35:17 PM 1 Views
A good point, for the sake of the knowledge itself - 19/04/2004 09:48:46 PM 1 Views
Well, it does not have so much do with you as to - 19/04/2004 09:50:04 PM 1 Views
that's not how it looks to me - 20/04/2004 05:51:31 AM 1 Views
Fair enough *NM* - 20/04/2004 11:56:04 AM 1 Views
I never responded to chora.. - 20/04/2004 12:00:18 PM 1 Views
Ok... - 20/04/2004 12:11:10 PM 1 Views
Re: that's not how it looks to me - 20/04/2004 12:16:58 PM 1 Views
yes oh dear. - 20/04/2004 01:44:42 PM 1 Views
basically - 20/04/2004 09:12:52 PM 1 Views
you are wrong - 20/04/2004 09:15:27 PM 1 Views
your bias - 20/04/2004 09:28:49 PM 1 Views
Ok im not too keen on this going on further. - 21/04/2004 10:33:52 AM 1 Views
Re: basically - 21/04/2004 10:43:31 AM 1 Views
Re: your bias - 21/04/2004 10:48:39 AM 1 Views
you're pathetic - 21/04/2004 07:00:30 PM 1 Views
that's because you're in the wrong - 21/04/2004 07:04:50 PM 1 Views
I used to respect your opinion - 22/04/2004 12:12:12 AM 1 Views
You are a pinnacle of academic professionalism and reason - 22/04/2004 12:14:07 AM 1 Views
Headline: Wannabe Academic Throws Hissy Fit *NM* - 22/04/2004 12:18:07 AM 1 Views
Hardly. - 22/04/2004 09:55:35 AM 1 Views
Would you want me to lie? - 22/04/2004 09:58:14 AM 1 Views