There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers)
RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM
No, I was purely using "Oedipus Rex" as an example because in the order of Sophocles' plays, "Oedipus Rex" (translated as Oedipus the King), lead to "Oedipus at Colonus" and was ended by "Antigone" as a tragic cycle. The order is very similar to "Dune", "Dune Messiah" and "Children of Dune"'s places in the overall series. The first trilogy is overall a tragedy, so I see many parallels, especially since Oedipus is blind for the entirety of "Oedipus at Colonus" similar to Paul's blindness and wanderings after a certain point in "Dune Messiah", as well as the idea that tremendous forces have to be confronted by Oedipus' progeny in the form of his daughter, Antigone, while it falls to Leto II to go further and do the hard work necessary to ensure the Golden Path is successful. Indeed you can look at "Dune" as being about what happens when a superbeing uniting male and female aspects is created - he didn't have an incestual relationship in the physical sense, but he understood his mother as his father did, and had access to those memories. As Jessica later says about Leto II and Ghanima when they reproduce those memories, "it was an Abomination" - she felt stripped bare before them with knowledge that no child should know firsthand. It is the gift of Jessica's heritage as a Bene Gesserit and genetic bloodlines that opened up the prescient abilities in the Atreides line.
But, yes, Aliah has prophetic powers in "Dune" and "Dune Messiah" - they are waning in the second book, though, which is why she started taking more massive dosages of spice and how she became an Abomination. She was not a full blown Kwisatz Haderach, which makes sense since she was to be the female Atreides that would have given birth to a Atreides/Harkonnen son that would have the full powers. This is alluded to in her early birth, where she already was being talked about by the other Fremen because she knew things that had not happened, yet, and already had the maturity of an adult. You might have missed this in "Dune", but she uses her limited prescient abilities to manifest thoughts into Mohiam's mind - she uses this to communicate with Paul:
Of all the uses of time-vision, this was the strangest. "I have breasted the future to place my words where only you can hear them," Alia had said. "Even you cannot do that, my brother. I find it an interesting play. And ... oh, yes — I've killed our grandfather, the demented old Baron. He had very little pain."
Also, in the training sequence where Alia is fighting the sword training mechanism, she remarks that she is now the match of about seven Ginaz swordmasters. Duncan himself never gave his rank, but the implication is that she has pursued the utmost physical capabilities of her prana-bindu training to exceed what he (and Paul) were capable of. This lead her to start exploring the Bene Gesserit forbidden controls of manipulating the aging process and etc. It is this same ultimate control that she uses to wrest muscular control from the Abomination of the Barons' control, and commit suicide.
Alia is an interesting character because F.H. gave hints of what she was capable of, showed the obvious evolution and did very well in following through on them throughout the trilogy without giving up all of her secrets. She comes across as a very relatable person at all steps of her sad journey.
I really love these characters and my affections have grown after multiple re-readings, especially having read Frank Herberts' biography and etc, and I can appreciate how he placed jewel-like "hints" as to real motivations throughout the series.
In the end, the series had a great resolution in "Chapterhouse", with each human now being fully "human".
But, yes, Aliah has prophetic powers in "Dune" and "Dune Messiah" - they are waning in the second book, though, which is why she started taking more massive dosages of spice and how she became an Abomination. She was not a full blown Kwisatz Haderach, which makes sense since she was to be the female Atreides that would have given birth to a Atreides/Harkonnen son that would have the full powers. This is alluded to in her early birth, where she already was being talked about by the other Fremen because she knew things that had not happened, yet, and already had the maturity of an adult. You might have missed this in "Dune", but she uses her limited prescient abilities to manifest thoughts into Mohiam's mind - she uses this to communicate with Paul:
Of all the uses of time-vision, this was the strangest. "I have breasted the future to place my words where only you can hear them," Alia had said. "Even you cannot do that, my brother. I find it an interesting play. And ... oh, yes — I've killed our grandfather, the demented old Baron. He had very little pain."
Also, in the training sequence where Alia is fighting the sword training mechanism, she remarks that she is now the match of about seven Ginaz swordmasters. Duncan himself never gave his rank, but the implication is that she has pursued the utmost physical capabilities of her prana-bindu training to exceed what he (and Paul) were capable of. This lead her to start exploring the Bene Gesserit forbidden controls of manipulating the aging process and etc. It is this same ultimate control that she uses to wrest muscular control from the Abomination of the Barons' control, and commit suicide.
Alia is an interesting character because F.H. gave hints of what she was capable of, showed the obvious evolution and did very well in following through on them throughout the trilogy without giving up all of her secrets. She comes across as a very relatable person at all steps of her sad journey.
I really love these characters and my affections have grown after multiple re-readings, especially having read Frank Herberts' biography and etc, and I can appreciate how he placed jewel-like "hints" as to real motivations throughout the series.
In the end, the series had a great resolution in "Chapterhouse", with each human now being fully "human".
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 22/04/2010 at 07:01:39 PM
Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within)
- 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
- 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM
1137 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
- 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
- 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM
1264 Views
Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
- 17/04/2010 06:54:14 PM
1307 Views
Re: Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
- 17/04/2010 10:44:18 PM
1143 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
- 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
1259 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
- 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM
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Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
- 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM
1113 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
- 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM
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That was most of my issue.
- 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM
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Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
- 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM
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Thank you for saying concisely the point I have been trying to make. *NM*
- 21/04/2010 06:34:12 PM
475 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
- 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
1051 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
- 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM
1029 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
- 22/04/2010 04:08:28 PM
968 Views
Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
- 22/04/2010 09:28:05 PM
1094 Views
Re: Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
- 23/04/2010 05:22:22 PM
1002 Views
Re: Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
- 29/04/2010 11:36:45 PM
1101 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
- 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM
1138 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
- 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM
1007 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
- 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM
914 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
- 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM
1151 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book
- 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM
1526 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM*
- 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM
502 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune
- 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM
1203 Views
There are several points to the book/series
- 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM
1236 Views
Everyone get something different from a book
- 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM
1414 Views
I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series
- 20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM
1166 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts
- 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM
1344 Views
Well, I enjoyed more of the characters this time around, if that helps
- 18/04/2010 12:14:43 AM
1229 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
- 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM
1624 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
- 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM
1428 Views
- 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM
1428 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
- 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM
1366 Views
- 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM
1366 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
- 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM
1283 Views
- 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM
1283 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
- 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM
1046 Views
- 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM
1046 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM*
- 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM
450 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
- 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM
1335 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
- 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM
1009 Views
I didn't see that in Alia
- 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM
947 Views
There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers)
- 22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM
949 Views
OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I wasn't for sure what you were arguing at first
- 22/04/2010 09:14:46 PM
1063 Views
One of my favorite series!
- 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM
954 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
- 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM
883 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
- 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM
985 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
- 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM
925 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
- 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM
1008 Views
