I just, just finished reading, and I'm having some of these same thoughts. To respond:
Agree to the latter, same game, although visiting the same ruse twice in the course of 5000 pages is somewhat forgivable, in my opinion. As for Mormont's name, it seemed to me as I was reading it that Martin was just trying to write it as Tyrion thought it, talking to 'the knight' until he actually had an inner dialogue about who 'the knight' obviously was, then switched his inner monologue to start using his name. The readers were obviously supposed to know who it was from the end of his previous chapter, and really I think it would have been less clumsy to just start the next chapter from Tyrion's POV saying 'the knight who was obviously Jorah Mormont' instead of building absolutely no suspense for like 6 pages... but Martin's writing has been clumsy in general in books 4 and 5, so although it was unfortunate, it wasn't surprising, and I don't think it was supposed to trick anybody.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you complaining that he hasn't killed off enough POV characters in the last 2 books? Because other than Ned and Cat (who's still sort of alive, I guess) he hasn't killed off any before that, so I wouldn't necessarily expect that from his previous work, nor be angry at him if I didn't see enough of that. His reputation is based on his fans' reactions to his writing more than his writing.
Or are you complaining (perhaps just 'noting' would be a more appropriate description of what you're saying) that not enough 'major' characters have been killed? Because, I mean, Kevan Lannister and Pycelle got offed right at the end, and they've played pretty majorly in the whole series. I accept that it can't always be as full of carnage as the second half of a Storm of Swords. But that's one of the things I enjoy about Martin's writing, is that I'm never really sure what is going on or what to believe. Sure, I agree with your main point, the cliffhanger POV's are kind of tired - of course Jon Snow's not dead, of course Tyrion wasn't going to drown when the weird grayscale guys got him, of course Dany isn't going to die any time soon. But, I don't really know about anyone else... like what the hell is going to happen to Jaime? They seem to have built his character up to some purpose, so it'd be weird if they predictably killed him as all signs seem to point to, but I thought they'd do more with Sandor Clegane than save him from death at Dondarrion's hands only to have him die months later after carting Arya around to little effect, or with Gregor for that matter, rather than have him actually die of the poison and become some weird zombie warrior. Or Stannis, I'm really not sure what's going on there, as the rest of the Bastard's letter rang true, but it wouldn't make sense for the rest of it, ie. Theon and 'Arya' were with Stannis too, but obviously the Bastard doesn't have them. It's intriguing, and I'm curious to see the real story next book.
Anyway, it can't all be like book 1 where we thought Ned was being set up as the main character - anyone who's paid attention to the series knows that Jon, Dany and Tyrion at least, can't really die yet. And obvious ruses for other POV characters, like Davos, are, well, obviously ruses. So yeah, the cliffhanger POV stuff is a little tired by now. But I don't think the frequency with which he's killing characters or my perception of how 'safe' they are is really different then it has been for the whole story.
Does the 'i doubt it' mean you think Jon's actually dead? I mean, all them stabbies are hard to overcome, but we need someone to be the narrator at the Wall, much less one head of the dragon...
Why are you singling out Arya? Aren't most POV characters 'evil' by that token?
Well, that's fitting with Martin's weird genetics in Westeros, like ALL of Robert's children looking like him, or all the Targaryens having purple eyes.... the Starks are just lucky I guess.
I'd go with the latter before the former, myself, but it also conveniently fits the 'prophecy is fallible' theme. Words, as Martin loves to state, are wind, after all.
Okay, a few things:
- yeah I'm convinced that 'Aegon' is a fake, not least because Quaithe calls him the 'mummer's dragon'... unless that literally refers to the fact that he's the Targaryen that is controlled by the former mummer Varys. Even so, him being the real Aegon is far too convenient to be introduced at this point without any prior foreshadowing. Although it makes sense that things hidden deeply from everyone in Westeros could possibly be hidden from readers, this just seems too out of left field for me not to be incredibly doubtful. Perhaps Aegon comes from the same bastard brood of Aurane Waters.
- As for the question of 'why bother with Dany if you're Varys', it might make a bit of sense if you consider Aegon a fake. If Dany is the child of prophecy that's going to rebirth the dragons (which we know has been speculated about, through what Maester Aemon said about his and Rhaegar's speculation), and you have some fake Aegon who is most definitely NOT going to reawaken dragons, what would you do if you were Varys? Of all the garbage that's come out of Varys' mouth in the series, what rings most true to me is that he wants what's best for the realm. So, if you have a child of prophecy that you're bound to support that has all of the above mentioned problems, how do you temper that? Marry her to a creature of your own making, who is shaped to be someone who serves the realm well, and more importantly is ostensibly the one with the better claim to the rulership of Westeros. That way, you get the dragons, the Targaryen, and the most power with the right guy. Of course, that requires Varys et al to have guessed that Viserys would die, which is a problem with the whole theory...
- I don't think the dragons should be underestimated, or put in a negative light as you have them here. Sure they're homicidal, uncontrollable monsters, but they are also mythical and fear-inducing homicidal uncontrollable monsters that are credited as being the sole reason why the thousands of years of Seven Kingdoms were merged into one kingdom. The fact that she created these double-edged swords of incredible power and is the only real link to even possibly controlling them is more than enough reason to make her 'appealing'.
- cute as the comparison is with Buffy, I've never gotten the impression of 'yay! girl power!' from Dany at all. Just terror, pride, compassion, the desires and decision-making powers of a teenage girl figuring things out, etc. Again, if that impression is there I think it's more the fans than the material, personally.
- as far as Dany being a disastrous ruler, for the purposes of the books I feel like she's being 'seasoned' in Mereen somewhat, and reserve ultimate judgement on her rulership until she actually has ruled her rightful kingdom for at least a day.
Yeah. I definitely, definitely liked the North focus in the storyline. Way more interesting than book 4.
- Is Martin trying too hard to be clever? I wonder if the adulation and admiration he got from killing off “heroes” in the early books went to his head. What was the point of explicitly not mentioning Mormont’s name for so long? It could not even have been to play up the surprise to the less attentive readers, or service the character’s perspective, since there is no moment of revelation. From one paragraph to the next, Tyrion simply switches from calling him as “the knight” to using his name. Also, regarding that plotline, it felt like he was trying to play the same game he played with Arya & Sandor Clegane, making it look like the good guy has been captured by the renegade warrior and is being dragged back to face Cersei & doom, but SURPRISE! The captor is actually bringing the good guy to where he wants to go all along (Was anyone shocked when Tyrion & Jorah didn’t make it there either? )!
Agree to the latter, same game, although visiting the same ruse twice in the course of 5000 pages is somewhat forgivable, in my opinion. As for Mormont's name, it seemed to me as I was reading it that Martin was just trying to write it as Tyrion thought it, talking to 'the knight' until he actually had an inner dialogue about who 'the knight' obviously was, then switched his inner monologue to start using his name. The readers were obviously supposed to know who it was from the end of his previous chapter, and really I think it would have been less clumsy to just start the next chapter from Tyrion's POV saying 'the knight who was obviously Jorah Mormont' instead of building absolutely no suspense for like 6 pages... but Martin's writing has been clumsy in general in books 4 and 5, so although it was unfortunate, it wasn't surprising, and I don't think it was supposed to trick anybody.
Also, the PoV-line cliffhangers are getting old, especially to readers who are now familiar with his old tricks. I daresay no one thought Brienne was dead from aFfC, anymore than Theon died in aCoK or in his jump from Winterfell’s walls, or Asha had died in the Wolfswood any more than Arya died getting hit with an axe at the Twins. Unless WoW kicks off with Jon Snow’s funeral, I won’t believe him dead either, and even then, that would depend on the circumstances. I think the internet should change Martin’s Official Reputation from “No Character is Safe” to “No One is Dead Unless You See a Lethal Injury or the Body Gets Mutilated.” Did anyone believe the reports Cersei received off Manderly’s execution of Davos? Nope. Martin was way too invested in him. Who got killed in the last two books? A couple of throwaway PoV characters killed in the very book in which they are introduced, Arys Oakheart & Quentyn Martell.
I'm not sure I understand. Are you complaining that he hasn't killed off enough POV characters in the last 2 books? Because other than Ned and Cat (who's still sort of alive, I guess) he hasn't killed off any before that, so I wouldn't necessarily expect that from his previous work, nor be angry at him if I didn't see enough of that. His reputation is based on his fans' reactions to his writing more than his writing.
Or are you complaining (perhaps just 'noting' would be a more appropriate description of what you're saying) that not enough 'major' characters have been killed? Because, I mean, Kevan Lannister and Pycelle got offed right at the end, and they've played pretty majorly in the whole series. I accept that it can't always be as full of carnage as the second half of a Storm of Swords. But that's one of the things I enjoy about Martin's writing, is that I'm never really sure what is going on or what to believe. Sure, I agree with your main point, the cliffhanger POV's are kind of tired - of course Jon Snow's not dead, of course Tyrion wasn't going to drown when the weird grayscale guys got him, of course Dany isn't going to die any time soon. But, I don't really know about anyone else... like what the hell is going to happen to Jaime? They seem to have built his character up to some purpose, so it'd be weird if they predictably killed him as all signs seem to point to, but I thought they'd do more with Sandor Clegane than save him from death at Dondarrion's hands only to have him die months later after carting Arya around to little effect, or with Gregor for that matter, rather than have him actually die of the poison and become some weird zombie warrior. Or Stannis, I'm really not sure what's going on there, as the rest of the Bastard's letter rang true, but it wouldn't make sense for the rest of it, ie. Theon and 'Arya' were with Stannis too, but obviously the Bastard doesn't have them. It's intriguing, and I'm curious to see the real story next book.
Anyway, it can't all be like book 1 where we thought Ned was being set up as the main character - anyone who's paid attention to the series knows that Jon, Dany and Tyrion at least, can't really die yet. And obvious ruses for other POV characters, like Davos, are, well, obviously ruses. So yeah, the cliffhanger POV stuff is a little tired by now. But I don't think the frequency with which he's killing characters or my perception of how 'safe' they are is really different then it has been for the whole story.
Both books feel like they could have done without either storyline, leaving one with the suspicion that Martin threw them in there to keep up his character-killer reputation. That reputation has coasted awfully far on Ned Stark alone, plus a few background characters, villains and the by-now traditional prologue throwaway PoV. Meanwhile, we get fake-outs like Bran & Rickon, Theon, Brienne, Tyrion, Asha, Davos, Arya and Catelyn. And maybe (though I doubt it) Jon. As a literary device, that reputation was supposed to lend credibility to things like Jon’s gang-stabbing, but thanks to Martin’s going to that well so many times, the safe percentage is that this is another non-death feint.
Does the 'i doubt it' mean you think Jon's actually dead? I mean, all them stabbies are hard to overcome, but we need someone to be the narrator at the Wall, much less one head of the dragon...
- Are we finally satisfied that Arya is indeed evil now? She murders a man for absolutely no other reason than strangers tell her to, because they are getting paid for it, regardless of all their blather about their god. Give me the Old Man of the Mountain over the kindly man of the House of Black and White any day.
Why are you singling out Arya? Aren't most POV characters 'evil' by that token?
- If wargs are as rare are Bran is told, how is it that one family has four (and possibly more) children of the same generation with at least a portion of that talent? Bran, Ary & Jon are shown to have the ability to take on their wolves’ skins, and Robb & Rickon seemed to have some degree of connection to their wolves, who react strongly to their wills. Robb’s last words suggest he might have been feeling Grey Wind’s death or peril too, and the fact that his and Jon’s last thoughts seemed to be more with their wolves than anything else, point back to Varamyr’s thoughts about the death of wargs. Though Sansa lost her wolf too soon to tell, Lady seems to have been the one to most obviously reflect her human’s personality and nature, and that may have been the mental connection at work (Varamyr claims that the animals become more like humans), again suggesting the talent. So is it a genetic thing or simply a case of exposure to the right animal at a young enough age (at lot of Rickon’s behavior issues, generally written off as a lack of parenting, might also come from his absorption of Shaggydog’s feral nature, such as his refusal to accept a hair cut, or his initial hostility to the Freys flipping to complete acceptance after an inconclusive fight). Of the sentient children, the youngest is the one with the most success at warg stuff, and the oldest in the one with the least. Jon seems a bit closer to Ghost than Robb to Grey Wind, but the former was more isolated and dependant on Ghost in the wild while the latter was far more involved with civilization and generally busier.
Well, that's fitting with Martin's weird genetics in Westeros, like ALL of Robert's children looking like him, or all the Targaryens having purple eyes.... the Starks are just lucky I guess.
- Have Quaithe's predictions begun to show the cracks of Melisande's? She seemed to predict the arrival of Connington and Aegon in Mereen. In fact, most of the people whose arrival she foretold to Daenerys ever encountered her. Were these just possibilities that never came to pass or did she misinterpret her prophecies and they'll actually encounter each other elsewhere? Or was this an example of Martin's plans changing? I know that he made references to a "Mereenese knot" when discussing the ongoing writing process. I wonder if the original plan was for several of the characters and storylines converge there, only to realize he wrote himself into a corner and had to adjust.
I'd go with the latter before the former, myself, but it also conveniently fits the 'prophecy is fallible' theme. Words, as Martin loves to state, are wind, after all.
- I also think that Aegon's survival came out of the blue. It seems too good to be real. Might he have been an ace in the hole for Varys & Illyrio in case their plans with Viserys and/or Daenerys fell through, a fake Aegon kept under wraps until the last of the real Targaryens failed? Let's not forget that Aegon would be THE rightful king. If they have the true heir to Aerys II & Rhaegar, why bother with their schemes with Viserys & Daenerys? Why plan to wed Daenerys to Drogo, and give her three dragon eggs for a wedding gift? From their overheard conversation beneath the Red Keep, they appeared to be genuinely intent on using the royal siblings and give no indication of their plans with the real heir. They had to have seen how inferior Aerys' children were to Aegon, who has been raised to the specifications Varys enumerates to Kevan, and how much less biddable Viserys would be.
- Speaking of Aegon VI, what is now supposed to be the appeal of Daenerys? Aegon has a better claim. He doesn't have uncontrollable, homicidal pyromaniacal monsters coming with him. He might be capable of having a successor of his own body follow him on the throne, instead of his reign being simply a prologue to the civil war that follows the death of an heirless monarch. All that Varys says to Kevan about Tommen applies equally to Daenerys - she was raised to believe the throne is hers by right (also recall what Asha has to say about the inferiority complexes of younger siblings - Dany & Tommen both grew up in the shadow of psychotic older brothers, until their very recent deaths, while Aegon never knew his older sister), and was certainly not raised to rule. Not only that, from what we have seen so far, she's crappy ruler. She operates on her whims and sentiments and while they are admittedly benevolent, she is still inconstant and fickle and gives absolutely no sign of respect for anything other than what she thinks is a good idea. Her kindnesses are as likely to cause strife and disaster in any realm she rules as Cersei's paranoia and selfishness. Aegon has at least been raised in an organized and educated fashion, not by a spoiled & arrogant brother's reminiscing about a nation he fled as a child. Aegon's foreign upbringing was controlled to give him maximum exposure to Westeros culture and values, while Dany spent her formative years being guested in palaces of the wealthy of the Free Cities and being a curiosity and showpiece, and lets not forget her complete willingness to use any and all means at her disposal to take "her" rightful throne, including sponsoring invasions by Dothraki savages with nothing but contempt for her people's culture. Even if Aegon is no more than a semi-competent non-entity once on the throne, that's still a long way ahead of the walking nightmare of chaos that is Daenerys Targaryen! Is this another Buffy the Vampire situation, where we are expected to abandon all critical observation because "Yay, girl power!"? Hmm. Skinny little light haired bimbos who randomly and luckily are bequeathed a great and unique power and as a result do a half-assed job of protecting ordinary people while indulging themselves by befriending selfish jerks and losers, sleeping with murderers and making idiotic plans that work because the author decreed it. Daenerys IS Buffy. And don't forget lesbian experimentation with oriental subordinates!
- Speaking of Aegon VI, what is now supposed to be the appeal of Daenerys? Aegon has a better claim. He doesn't have uncontrollable, homicidal pyromaniacal monsters coming with him. He might be capable of having a successor of his own body follow him on the throne, instead of his reign being simply a prologue to the civil war that follows the death of an heirless monarch. All that Varys says to Kevan about Tommen applies equally to Daenerys - she was raised to believe the throne is hers by right (also recall what Asha has to say about the inferiority complexes of younger siblings - Dany & Tommen both grew up in the shadow of psychotic older brothers, until their very recent deaths, while Aegon never knew his older sister), and was certainly not raised to rule. Not only that, from what we have seen so far, she's crappy ruler. She operates on her whims and sentiments and while they are admittedly benevolent, she is still inconstant and fickle and gives absolutely no sign of respect for anything other than what she thinks is a good idea. Her kindnesses are as likely to cause strife and disaster in any realm she rules as Cersei's paranoia and selfishness. Aegon has at least been raised in an organized and educated fashion, not by a spoiled & arrogant brother's reminiscing about a nation he fled as a child. Aegon's foreign upbringing was controlled to give him maximum exposure to Westeros culture and values, while Dany spent her formative years being guested in palaces of the wealthy of the Free Cities and being a curiosity and showpiece, and lets not forget her complete willingness to use any and all means at her disposal to take "her" rightful throne, including sponsoring invasions by Dothraki savages with nothing but contempt for her people's culture. Even if Aegon is no more than a semi-competent non-entity once on the throne, that's still a long way ahead of the walking nightmare of chaos that is Daenerys Targaryen! Is this another Buffy the Vampire situation, where we are expected to abandon all critical observation because "Yay, girl power!"? Hmm. Skinny little light haired bimbos who randomly and luckily are bequeathed a great and unique power and as a result do a half-assed job of protecting ordinary people while indulging themselves by befriending selfish jerks and losers, sleeping with murderers and making idiotic plans that work because the author decreed it. Daenerys IS Buffy. And don't forget lesbian experimentation with oriental subordinates!
Okay, a few things:
- yeah I'm convinced that 'Aegon' is a fake, not least because Quaithe calls him the 'mummer's dragon'... unless that literally refers to the fact that he's the Targaryen that is controlled by the former mummer Varys. Even so, him being the real Aegon is far too convenient to be introduced at this point without any prior foreshadowing. Although it makes sense that things hidden deeply from everyone in Westeros could possibly be hidden from readers, this just seems too out of left field for me not to be incredibly doubtful. Perhaps Aegon comes from the same bastard brood of Aurane Waters.
- As for the question of 'why bother with Dany if you're Varys', it might make a bit of sense if you consider Aegon a fake. If Dany is the child of prophecy that's going to rebirth the dragons (which we know has been speculated about, through what Maester Aemon said about his and Rhaegar's speculation), and you have some fake Aegon who is most definitely NOT going to reawaken dragons, what would you do if you were Varys? Of all the garbage that's come out of Varys' mouth in the series, what rings most true to me is that he wants what's best for the realm. So, if you have a child of prophecy that you're bound to support that has all of the above mentioned problems, how do you temper that? Marry her to a creature of your own making, who is shaped to be someone who serves the realm well, and more importantly is ostensibly the one with the better claim to the rulership of Westeros. That way, you get the dragons, the Targaryen, and the most power with the right guy. Of course, that requires Varys et al to have guessed that Viserys would die, which is a problem with the whole theory...
- I don't think the dragons should be underestimated, or put in a negative light as you have them here. Sure they're homicidal, uncontrollable monsters, but they are also mythical and fear-inducing homicidal uncontrollable monsters that are credited as being the sole reason why the thousands of years of Seven Kingdoms were merged into one kingdom. The fact that she created these double-edged swords of incredible power and is the only real link to even possibly controlling them is more than enough reason to make her 'appealing'.
- cute as the comparison is with Buffy, I've never gotten the impression of 'yay! girl power!' from Dany at all. Just terror, pride, compassion, the desires and decision-making powers of a teenage girl figuring things out, etc. Again, if that impression is there I think it's more the fans than the material, personally.
- as far as Dany being a disastrous ruler, for the purposes of the books I feel like she's being 'seasoned' in Mereen somewhat, and reserve ultimate judgement on her rulership until she actually has ruled her rightful kingdom for at least a day.
- I think the subtitle of this book should be "The North strikes back." It's nice to the northerners kick ass or show well next to their wealthier, more sophisticated and numerous southron brethren for once. It seemed like the theme of the first four books was "the North takes it up the tailpipe." Now a lot of badassery hinted at early on seems to be coming to pass.
- Pie and punch, anyone?
- Pie and punch, anyone?
Yeah. I definitely, definitely liked the North focus in the storyline. Way more interesting than book 4.
Some thoughts about Dance With Dragons (spoilers)
- 16/07/2011 02:34:59 AM
1139 Views
Re: Some thoughts about Dance With Dragons (spoilers)
- 16/07/2011 02:28:33 PM
685 Views
I thought Tarly was in the Griff's pocket...
- 16/07/2011 04:58:58 PM
710 Views
Will the Martells refuse Elia's son for a stranger who may or may not marry Quentyn?
- 17/07/2011 02:32:00 AM
1193 Views
I think it depends...
- 17/07/2011 03:02:48 AM
669 Views
King's Landing has a hostage though.
- 18/07/2011 12:16:21 AM
566 Views
She seems like a very feeble hostage though...
- 18/07/2011 02:27:15 AM
637 Views
I will give the Martells/Sands points for that - they do seem to accept each other as family
- 19/07/2011 11:15:52 PM
848 Views
very interesting
- 17/07/2011 12:16:10 AM
918 Views
Sandor's dead?
- 17/07/2011 02:24:23 AM
618 Views
A bit of confusion...
- 17/07/2011 08:53:54 AM
627 Views
If we're going there then we might as well throw Rhaegar in the mix...
- 17/07/2011 05:49:37 PM
609 Views