Active Users:220 Time:02/06/2024 09:21:23 AM
Re: Some thoughts about Dance With Dragons (spoilers) A Deathwatch Guard Send a noteboard - 17/07/2011 04:07:30 AM
- Is Martin trying too hard to be clever? I wonder if the adulation and admiration he got from killing off “heroes” in the early books went to his head. What was the point of explicitly not mentioning Mormont’s name for so long? It could not even have been to play up the surprise to the less attentive readers, or service the character’s perspective, since there is no moment of revelation. From one paragraph to the next, Tyrion simply switches from calling him as “the knight” to using his name. Also, regarding that plotline, it felt like he was trying to play the same game he played with Arya & Sandor Clegane, making it look like the good guy has been captured by the renegade warrior and is being dragged back to face Cersei & doom, but SURPRISE! The captor is actually bringing the good guy to where he wants to go all along (Was anyone shocked when Tyrion & Jorah didn’t make it there either? )! Also, the PoV-line cliffhangers are getting old, especially to readers who are now familiar with his old tricks. I daresay no one thought Brienne was dead from aFfC, anymore than Theon died in aCoK or in his jump from Winterfell’s walls, or Asha had died in the Wolfswood any more than Arya died getting hit with an axe at the Twins. Unless WoW kicks off with Jon Snow’s funeral, I won’t believe him dead either, and even then, that would depend on the circumstances. I think the internet should change Martin’s Official Reputation from “No Character is Safe” to “No One is Dead Unless You See a Lethal Injury or the Body Gets Mutilated.” Did anyone believe the reports Cersei received off Manderly’s execution of Davos? Nope. Martin was way too invested in him. Who got killed in the last two books? A couple of throwaway PoV characters killed in the very book in which they are introduced, Arys Oakheart & Quentyn Martell. Both books feel like they could have done without either storyline, leaving one with the suspicion that Martin threw them in there to keep up his character-killer reputation. That reputation has coasted awfully far on Ned Stark alone, plus a few background characters, villains and the by-now traditional prologue throwaway PoV. Meanwhile, we get fake-outs like Bran & Rickon, Theon, Brienne, Tyrion, Asha, Davos, Arya and Catelyn. And maybe (though I doubt it) Jon. As a literary device, that reputation was supposed to lend credibility to things like Jon’s gang-stabbing, but thanks to Martin’s going to that well so many times, the safe percentage is that this is another non-death feint.


The Mormont part didn't bother me at all. I knew from the beginning that it was likely Mormont, and that if it was he would be bringing Tyrion to Daenerys. So referring to him as "the knight" simply felt like the way Tyrion was thinking of him, the same way Theon sometimes thinks of himself as Theon and sometimes as Reek.

As for the character deaths... Martin killed off some PoV characters, but I don't think that is what makes the deaths in the books significant. Instead it is that Robb was instantly the "good guy" that it seemed we were supposed to cheer for. It looked as if the sides were taking shape, and he would obviously suffer a lot, go through a bunch of trouble, and then in the end emerge victorious in heroic fashion, as we've seen in plenty of other books. Instead he got killed, and that threw the whole "good guys" and "bad guys" perspective into disarray. Martin has been pretending to kill his characters since the very first book, and it hasn't bothered me any of those times, and has been pretty predictable for the most part. Only Catelyn's survival was surprising, but then again, she didn't even survive, did she? She's much closer to some kind of demon or Other than anything. I don't believe Jon is dead either, that's true, but I think the main point there isn't that he dies but that he is no longer the Lord Commander, so his life just got even more difficult.

- Are we finally satisfied that Arya is indeed evil now? She murders a man for absolutely no other reason than strangers tell her to, because they are getting paid for it, regardless of all their blather about their god. Give me the Old Man of the Mountain over the kindly man of the House of Black and White any day.


You have an interesting way of phrasing what she did... Strangers tell her to do that, and it is either do that, or leave and fend for herself. All the other characters have blood on their hands too, and most would also be willing to kill in exchange for being fed and given shelter and taught. Not to mention that a case can be made for the man deserving to die. Not for the silly justifications Arya gives for it, with him having a villain's beard and all that, but because he betrayed the people he signs contracts with. Whatever the case, Arya is simply doing what is required of her, exactly as every other character in the books. The very theme of Song of Ice and Fire, it seems to me, is showing how far people can be willing to go.

- If wargs are as rare are Bran is told, how is it that one family has four (and possibly more) children of the same generation with at least a portion of that talent? Bran, Ary & Jon are shown to have the ability to take on their wolves’ skins, and Robb & Rickon seemed to have some degree of connection to their wolves, who react strongly to their wills. Robb’s last words suggest he might have been feeling Grey Wind’s death or peril too, and the fact that his and Jon’s last thoughts seemed to be more with their wolves than anything else, point back to Varamyr’s thoughts about the death of wargs. Though Sansa lost her wolf too soon to tell, Lady seems to have been the one to most obviously reflect her human’s personality and nature, and that may have been the mental connection at work (Varamyr claims that the animals become more like humans), again suggesting the talent. So is it a genetic thing or simply a case of exposure to the right animal at a young enough age (at lot of Rickon’s behavior issues, generally written off as a lack of parenting, might also come from his absorption of Shaggydog’s feral nature, such as his refusal to accept a hair cut, or his initial hostility to the Freys flipping to complete acceptance after an inconclusive fight). Of the sentient children, the youngest is the one with the most success at warg stuff, and the oldest in the one with the least. Jon seems a bit closer to Ghost than Robb to Grey Wind, but the former was more isolated and dependant on Ghost in the wild while the latter was far more involved with civilization and generally busier.


As Lord Brynden tells Bran, one man in a thousand is born a skin changer. Those aren't such bad odds, so it shouldn't be surprising that there are so many wargs. The only surprising thing is that there weren't more of them before, but perhaps their abilities were simply slumbering, and were awakened recently when magic started coming back into the world. As for the Stark children... They're the main characters, they're all wargs for the same reason Daenerys was able to give birth to dragons.

And I think you're right about Rickon. Bran mentioned several times I think in book 2, about feeling rage and other emotions that weren't his. Rickon is just a little boy, so he wouldn't have the willpower needed to maintain proper control of himself, and that is why his wolf is more wild, and he has become more wild as well. It'll be interesting to see what his journey with Asha has done to change him, and where Davos went to rescue him.

- Have Quaithe's predictions begun to show the cracks of Melisande's? She seemed to predict the arrival of Connington and Aegon in Mereen. In fact, most of the people whose arrival she foretold to Daenerys ever encountered her. Were these just possibilities that never came to pass or did she misinterpret her prophecies and they'll actually encounter each other elsewhere? Or was this an example of Martin's plans changing? I know that he made references to a "Mereenese knot" when discussing the ongoing writing process. I wonder if the original plan was for several of the characters and storylines converge there, only to realize he wrote himself into a corner and had to adjust.


It's truly unfortunate that the storylines didn't converge there... But once again, disappointment seems to be a theme of the series as well, though usually it is the characters that suffer it, and not the readers. As for Quaithe, her predictions have proven more accurate than most, but you are right, that part of her prediction does not seem like it will come to pass. The perfumed seneschal part seemed to be the most important part of it anyway, or at least the one that Dany remembered best.

- I also think that Aegon's survival came out of the blue. It seems too good to be real. Might he have been an ace in the hole for Varys & Illyrio in case their plans with Viserys and/or Daenerys fell through, a fake Aegon kept under wraps until the last of the real Targaryens failed? Let's not forget that Aegon would be THE rightful king. If they have the true heir to Aerys II & Rhaegar, why bother with their schemes with Viserys & Daenerys? Why plan to wed Daenerys to Drogo, and give her three dragon eggs for a wedding gift? From their overheard conversation beneath the Red Keep, they appeared to be genuinely intent on using the royal siblings and give no indication of their plans with the real heir. They had to have seen how inferior Aerys' children were to Aegon, who has been raised to the specifications Varys enumerates to Kevan, and how much less biddable Viserys would be.


It does seem too good to be real, and completely out of the blue. I suppose it isn't entirely unrealistic, considering how baby Aegon's body was unidentifiable, but still.... It's too early to tell if he's real or not though. I hope he is though, simply because I find it very fitting for Dany, who always thinks of herself as the rightful ruler of Westeros, and of reconquering it being justice, to be demoted to another mere pretender, albeit one with dragons.

- Speaking of Aegon VI, what is now supposed to be the appeal of Daenerys? Aegon has a better claim. He doesn't have uncontrollable, homicidal pyromaniacal monsters coming with him. He might be capable of having a successor of his own body follow him on the throne, instead of his reign being simply a prologue to the civil war that follows the death of an heirless monarch. All that Varys says to Kevan about Tommen applies equally to Daenerys - she was raised to believe the throne is hers by right (also recall what Asha has to say about the inferiority complexes of younger siblings - Dany & Tommen both grew up in the shadow of psychotic older brothers, until their very recent deaths, while Aegon never knew his older sister), and was certainly not raised to rule. Not only that, from what we have seen so far, she's crappy ruler. She operates on her whims and sentiments and while they are admittedly benevolent, she is still inconstant and fickle and gives absolutely no sign of respect for anything other than what she thinks is a good idea. Her kindnesses are as likely to cause strife and disaster in any realm she rules as Cersei's paranoia and selfishness. Aegon has at least been raised in an organized and educated fashion, not by a spoiled & arrogant brother's reminiscing about a nation he fled as a child. Aegon's foreign upbringing was controlled to give him maximum exposure to Westeros culture and values, while Dany spent her formative years being guested in palaces of the wealthy of the Free Cities and being a curiosity and showpiece, and lets not forget her complete willingness to use any and all means at her disposal to take "her" rightful throne, including sponsoring invasions by Dothraki savages with nothing but contempt for her people's culture. Even if Aegon is no more than a semi-competent non-entity once on the throne, that's still a long way ahead of the walking nightmare of chaos that is Daenerys Targaryen! Is this another Buffy the Vampire situation, where we are expected to abandon all critical observation because "Yay, girl power!"? Hmm. Skinny little light haired bimbos who randomly and luckily are bequeathed a great and unique power and as a result do a half-assed job of protecting ordinary people while indulging themselves by befriending selfish jerks and losers, sleeping with murderers and making idiotic plans that work because the author decreed it. Daenerys IS Buffy. And don't forget lesbian experimentation with oriental subordinates!


Can't comment on the Buffy comparison, but it's possible that Dany and Viserys were insurance, in case things went wrong with Aegon. Or Aegon was insurance for them. Or that the Aegon really is fake, and that Daenerys and Viserys were kept as secret trump cards. However, what I think most likely is that we still haven't seen all the pieces of the puzzle. Illoryio and Varys cannot be as good friends as they claim, for the simple reason that everyone in the books betrays nearly everyone else. I do not believe that they are completely of one mind on all things, so I think it's entirely likely that they have formed plans against one another, possibly maneuvering Dany, Viserys, and Aegon to suit their needs.

- I think the subtitle of this book should be "The North strikes back." It's nice to the northerners kick ass or show well next to their wealthier, more sophisticated and numerous southron brethren for once. It seemed like the theme of the first four books was "the North takes it up the tailpipe." Now a lot of badassery hinted at early on seems to be coming to pass.


Which is entirely fitting. The Northmen are what the north made them... So in the south they seemed like barbarians with giant beards, but now that it's winter, all the southerners and "summer knights" are going to die, while they'll finally show their mettle.
Reply to message
Some thoughts about Dance With Dragons (spoilers) - 16/07/2011 02:34:59 AM 1140 Views
Re: Some thoughts about Dance With Dragons (spoilers) - 16/07/2011 02:28:33 PM 688 Views
I thought Tarly was in the Griff's pocket... - 16/07/2011 04:58:58 PM 710 Views
I don't think so. - 16/07/2011 07:40:53 PM 663 Views
Those are barely reasons... - 17/07/2011 03:08:23 AM 709 Views
Will the Martells refuse Elia's son for a stranger who may or may not marry Quentyn? - 17/07/2011 02:32:00 AM 1195 Views
I think it depends... - 17/07/2011 03:02:48 AM 670 Views
The Targaryens are used to incestuous marriages. - 17/07/2011 07:48:12 PM 644 Views
I don't think that will matter... - 18/07/2011 05:18:17 AM 669 Views
King's Landing has a hostage though. - 18/07/2011 12:16:21 AM 566 Views
She seems like a very feeble hostage though... - 18/07/2011 02:27:15 AM 637 Views
very interesting - 17/07/2011 12:16:10 AM 918 Views
Sandor's dead? - 17/07/2011 02:24:23 AM 619 Views
A bit of confusion... - 17/07/2011 08:53:54 AM 627 Views
Re: A bit of confusion... - 18/07/2011 12:20:12 AM 579 Views
Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up! *NM* - 18/07/2011 02:21:14 AM 308 Views
If we're going there then we might as well throw Rhaegar in the mix... - 17/07/2011 05:49:37 PM 610 Views
Re: Sandor's dead? - 19/07/2011 08:50:13 PM 668 Views
Re: very interesting - 17/07/2011 03:01:06 AM 894 Views
Re: very interesting - 19/07/2011 09:24:49 PM 941 Views
Re: Some thoughts about Dance With Dragons (spoilers) - 17/07/2011 04:07:30 AM 760 Views

Reply to Message