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Re: There has to be something more, though. Macharius Send a noteboard - 20/12/2011 12:21:39 PM
I think the complaints about the misogyny in Martin's books are somewhat shakier, however. First off, he has a significant number of major female characters with agency, several of whom do not use their sexuality to get what they want (Arya, most notably) whilst others do (Cersei, Daenerys) and others reject that notion (Brienne). Secondly, ASoIaF is much more closely based on - or at least inspired by - real historical events (the Red Wedding is a re-enactment of the Black Dinner, when King James II of Scotland personally killed Earl Douglas at a dinner held under a flag of safe conduct, and Douglas was stabbed through the throat and thrown out of a window like Robb, though his head was not removed that we know of) and the level of 'misogyny' reflects that. On a related note, Mary Gentle, in her research for ASH: A SECRET HISTORY, discovered evidence that child prostitution amongst camp followers during medieval warfare was commonplace, and depicts her heroine starting life in such a role, something that goes way beyond anything seen in Martin (or Bakker, for that matter).

In fact, ASoIaF rather lowballs the levels of violence and rape that take place during major conflicts. The accounts of the devastation of Silesia and much of Eastern Germany during the Red Army's march on Berlin in 1945 are truly disturbing, and the notion that medieval warfare did not feature such things when there was far less reporting going on seems unrealistic.


All of which raises the point for me that, if I want to read about atrocities, the real world has far too many examples for me to want to have them featured and indeed highlighted in my recreational reading. That many of the events in ASoIaF have at least some historical background is no excuse for making a spectacle of the worst parts in the name of "authenticity".
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Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 17/12/2011 01:36:54 PM 1904 Views
Hm, ok. - 17/12/2011 10:51:21 PM 1300 Views
I think we largely agree - 17/12/2011 11:23:00 PM 1181 Views
Re: Hm, ok. - 26/12/2011 01:08:14 AM 1184 Views
Martin, Goodkind... - 18/12/2011 01:58:33 PM 1185 Views
More than just those - 18/12/2011 08:15:27 PM 1109 Views
Re: More than just those - 26/12/2011 01:13:21 AM 1036 Views
Re: Martin, Goodkind... - 26/12/2011 01:11:12 AM 1007 Views
On more of a "meta" level, what makes a fantasy story "gritty" in the first place? - 19/12/2011 02:58:57 PM 1053 Views
There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 03:47:56 PM 1227 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 05:29:30 PM 1095 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 09:06:14 PM 1073 Views
I agree about Martin - haven't read enough Bakker to judge. - 19/12/2011 09:56:17 PM 1131 Views
My problem with aSoIaF... - 20/12/2011 05:16:42 AM 1192 Views
The Rhoynish influence pretty much ends in Dorne. - 20/12/2011 06:15:54 AM 1101 Views
And that makes sense? - 20/12/2011 08:54:16 AM 1263 Views
Yes and no. - 20/12/2011 03:10:54 PM 1232 Views
Re: Yes and no. - 26/12/2011 03:12:01 AM 1063 Views
Re: And that makes sense? - 18/05/2012 01:42:52 AM 1158 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 20/12/2011 12:21:39 PM 1019 Views
That's a question for each reader to answer then. - 20/12/2011 03:20:39 PM 920 Views
You appear to have not understood my point. - 20/12/2011 05:59:07 PM 970 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:14:04 AM 1011 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:01:34 AM 1008 Views
That's my general take as well - 20/12/2011 07:15:51 AM 1003 Views
I like violence *NM* - 20/12/2011 07:51:39 PM 506 Views
Re: Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 25/12/2011 11:52:41 PM 1201 Views

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