Marriage is either an economic status regulated by law or a religious institution.
Tom Send a noteboard - 05/08/2010 05:13:17 AM
If marriage is an economic status recognized and protected in law, then it can end up conferring benefits on heterosexuals that homosexuals would be prohibited from taking advantage of. These benefits could include joint tax returns, access to health insurance or other spousal benefits, the ability to have intestate succession pass to a surviving spouse if the decedent spouse had no will and other benefits.
In that case, it is a socioeconomic benefit that is being denied to a group of people on the basis of sexual orientation. This, based on my understanding of the Substantive Due Process Doctrine (though let me caveat that I disagree with the doctrine as a matter of strict legal construction), is unconstitutional.
Let me digress for a second: I think that there is no Substantive Due Process implied in the Fourteenth Amendment but I also am against having the Tenth Amendment be seen as simply a "truism". If such matters could actually be devolved to the states without the Federal government getting involved, I would prefer to see almost all the "hot-button" issues decided at a state level. However, I know that this doesn't work, Congress sticks its nose into anything and everything it can and as a result the Substantive Due Process Doctrine is a necessary check on the grasping hands of Congress.
There. The point is that whether or not you like the Substantive Due Process Doctrine it's there now and there's no way to put the genie back the bottle.
Conversely, if marriage is a religious institution then the government really shouldn't be recognizing it because it has little to do with the government's function (to defend the polity from external and internal threats to their continued physical existence and their lawful property).
The fact that marriage is viewed by the government as a non-religious institution, but rather a socioeconomic institution, can be seen from several indicia:
1. Although a religious ceremony may be performed as a means of witnessing a marriage, it is possible to get married at City Hall or through non-religious ceremonies (something atheists and agnostics do all the time).
2. The government also hands out divorce certificates. I am not aware of many churches that perform divorce ceremonies as a way of solemnizing the end of a socioeconomic union. Church dispensation may be granted in some cases, but the only religious system that I can think of that has a formalized religious divorce procedure is Islam. Say "I divorce you" three times in front of the requisite number of witnesses and the divorce is official. Ironically, it is fundamentalist Christians (and Mormons, who aren't technically Christian) who are the most up in arms about gay marriage, yet Christ said that divorce should not be allowed when commenting on the laws of Moses permitting divorce.
3. The government does not ask if an individual has the proper permission to remarry after a divorce. Catholics are granted divorces even though the Catholic Church prohibits them, and Muslims can get divorces even without following the Quranic teaching on the matter (saying "I divorce you" on paper once is enough). These individuals may still be considered "married" by their faiths, and a subsequent remarriage would not be recognized (they would be "living in sin" or "committing adultery" or at a minimum, be taking a second wife without the permission of the first). However, the government doesn't care if the pope or an imam recognizes a previous divorce.
Is that a satisfactory answer?
In that case, it is a socioeconomic benefit that is being denied to a group of people on the basis of sexual orientation. This, based on my understanding of the Substantive Due Process Doctrine (though let me caveat that I disagree with the doctrine as a matter of strict legal construction), is unconstitutional.
Let me digress for a second: I think that there is no Substantive Due Process implied in the Fourteenth Amendment but I also am against having the Tenth Amendment be seen as simply a "truism". If such matters could actually be devolved to the states without the Federal government getting involved, I would prefer to see almost all the "hot-button" issues decided at a state level. However, I know that this doesn't work, Congress sticks its nose into anything and everything it can and as a result the Substantive Due Process Doctrine is a necessary check on the grasping hands of Congress.
There. The point is that whether or not you like the Substantive Due Process Doctrine it's there now and there's no way to put the genie back the bottle.
Conversely, if marriage is a religious institution then the government really shouldn't be recognizing it because it has little to do with the government's function (to defend the polity from external and internal threats to their continued physical existence and their lawful property).
The fact that marriage is viewed by the government as a non-religious institution, but rather a socioeconomic institution, can be seen from several indicia:
1. Although a religious ceremony may be performed as a means of witnessing a marriage, it is possible to get married at City Hall or through non-religious ceremonies (something atheists and agnostics do all the time).
2. The government also hands out divorce certificates. I am not aware of many churches that perform divorce ceremonies as a way of solemnizing the end of a socioeconomic union. Church dispensation may be granted in some cases, but the only religious system that I can think of that has a formalized religious divorce procedure is Islam. Say "I divorce you" three times in front of the requisite number of witnesses and the divorce is official. Ironically, it is fundamentalist Christians (and Mormons, who aren't technically Christian) who are the most up in arms about gay marriage, yet Christ said that divorce should not be allowed when commenting on the laws of Moses permitting divorce.
3. The government does not ask if an individual has the proper permission to remarry after a divorce. Catholics are granted divorces even though the Catholic Church prohibits them, and Muslims can get divorces even without following the Quranic teaching on the matter (saying "I divorce you" on paper once is enough). These individuals may still be considered "married" by their faiths, and a subsequent remarriage would not be recognized (they would be "living in sin" or "committing adultery" or at a minimum, be taking a second wife without the permission of the first). However, the government doesn't care if the pope or an imam recognizes a previous divorce.
Is that a satisfactory answer?
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional
04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM
- 1421 Views
Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC.
04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM
- 762 Views
So then is that how we do it?
04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM
- 898 Views
Of course.
04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM
- 795 Views
His point was
04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM
- 942 Views
Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM*
05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM
- 455 Views
And again...
05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM
- 666 Views
To quote my property professor: "Can I make you think like a Californian?"
05/08/2010 06:39:48 PM
- 709 Views
I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize.
04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM
- 779 Views

The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA.
04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM
- 876 Views
democracy has been a failure in CA.
05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM
- 654 Views
No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate.
05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM
- 794 Views
we vote fro way to much crap in general
05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM
- 722 Views
Yes, you still have to abide by the Constitution, even if a lot of people don't like it. *NM*
05/08/2010 12:07:44 AM
- 408 Views
Amend the Constitution to alter the Fourteenth Amendment if you don't like it. *NM*
05/08/2010 01:09:51 AM
- 476 Views
just a devil's advocate position here, but....
05/08/2010 04:23:43 AM
- 809 Views
Marriage is either an economic status regulated by law or a religious institution.
05/08/2010 05:13:17 AM
- 827 Views
There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote...
05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM
- 815 Views
I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular.
05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM
- 847 Views
Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular.
05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM
- 822 Views
I understand it.
05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM
- 813 Views
I know you don't support proposition 8
05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM
- 829 Views
05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM
- 836 Views


But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility
05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM
- 723 Views
Oh, ees it?
05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM
- 853 Views

Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing
05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM
- 732 Views

Why would you complain if you won?
05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM
- 799 Views

You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like?
05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM
- 673 Views
I'm sure that happens, in general.
06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM
- 655 Views
It seems to happen a lot nowadays
06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM
- 688 Views
It's so weird that you feel differently - there is only room for one opinion here!
06/08/2010 03:41:52 PM
- 608 Views

instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM*
05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM
- 407 Views
The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms.
05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM
- 818 Views
not when judges stop using the Constitution
05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM
- 802 Views
Sexual preference is not the right being protected.
05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM
- 858 Views
I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended.
05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM
- 768 Views
I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing.
05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM
- 847 Views
let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think
05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM
- 702 Views
Come now lets not be stupid
06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM
- 666 Views
sorry but your statement was completely ignorant.
06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM
- 786 Views
I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant
06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM
- 754 Views
Let's just be clear about which amendment is which.
05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM
- 668 Views
but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created
06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM
- 726 Views
Yes, no, no, and no.
06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM
- 773 Views
there are serious flaws in your thinking here
06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM
- 830 Views
Your assertions continue to lack support.
06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM
- 859 Views
not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with
06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM
- 826 Views
...said the pot to the kettle
06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM
- 905 Views
yes but a shiny stainless steel pot
09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM
- 967 Views
You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts.
10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM
- 1292 Views
If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong.
10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM
- 750 Views
Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM*
10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM
- 404 Views
Actually, that only proves his point, if I understand correctly. *NM*
10/08/2010 11:11:19 AM
- 433 Views
part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point
10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM
- 963 Views
There's a simple way to determine the degree to which that opinion is objective or subjective...
06/08/2010 09:32:21 PM
- 695 Views
Since when is marriage a right? *NM*
05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM
- 392 Views
it may not be a "right"...
05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM
- 700 Views
It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace.
05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM
- 781 Views
Hey, I'm single....
05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM
- 703 Views
That's a specious argument and you know it.
05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM
- 765 Views
A homosexual has every opportunity as well.....
05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM
- 722 Views
Oh quit the bullshit already.
05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM
- 916 Views
Sorry, but what a nonsense.
05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM
- 705 Views
hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!!
05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM
- 821 Views
ON TO WORLD HUNGER!
06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM
- 712 Views
LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM*
06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM
- 375 Views
Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM*
06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM
- 467 Views
People are fed lies all the time
06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM
- 692 Views
Quite so, but I don't think it's commonly a mainstay of their diet *NM*
06/08/2010 09:50:33 PM
- 407 Views
It is the only thing which is abundant enough for everyone to have some...
*NM*
06/08/2010 10:01:44 PM
- 664 Views

I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside.
05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM
- 798 Views
Since 1948
06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM
- 916 Views
gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM*
06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM
- 370 Views
I don't see any typo...
*NM*
06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM
- 424 Views

I agree
05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM
- 770 Views
And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South.
05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM
- 782 Views
but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws
05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM
- 731 Views
I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it
05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM
- 718 Views
but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress
05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM
- 756 Views
No, like in this case, isn't it?
05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM
- 699 Views
I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice
05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM
- 673 Views
Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM*
04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM
- 480 Views
Link to the full court order inside:
04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM
- 911 Views
The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing.
04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM
- 772 Views
What page was that on?
05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM
- 690 Views
Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere.
05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM
- 798 Views
Oh, that is brilliant.
05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM
- 701 Views
Pretty much.
05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM
- 826 Views
I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid.
05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM
- 780 Views
because you cannot give consent when you are dead?
05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM
- 789 Views
what if you give consent while you are still alive?
05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM
- 857 Views
Is it then illegal?
05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM
- 779 Views
given I imagine the pro-necrophilia lobby isn't strong in numbers or influence
05/08/2010 03:33:11 PM
- 834 Views
Re: given I imagine the pro-necrophilia lobby isn't strong in numbers or influence
05/08/2010 03:34:57 PM
- 884 Views
I would think it would be illegal even then
05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM
- 795 Views
Wikipedia to the rescue!
05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM
- 928 Views
you would hope the other states would cover it under improper treatmentof human remains
05/08/2010 07:38:59 PM
- 739 Views
A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights.
05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM
- 782 Views
Yes, but
06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM
- 734 Views
Absolutely not.
06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM
- 781 Views
not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health.
06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM
- 847 Views
Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM*
05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM
- 436 Views