We have all grown up on a steady diet of advertising, I don't know why you find the toy troublesome, its no different then any of the following:
A fortune cookie
This is clearly a very weak reinforcer, especially for an adult.
A comic in a Bazooka Joe gum wrapper
This might work with kids, it most certainly wouldn't work for an adult. Besides, it would only work as a reinforcer if the kid actually likes comics.
A piece of trivia printed on a sugar packet, oatmeal, or cereal box
This is probably not a reinforcer for anyone. No one is going to tear into the sugar pack or oatmeal pack and eat it because there is something interesting printed on the back. And it is doubtful that anyone would even buy it for that if they can just pick it up without opening it and read it.
The toys regularly include in snack and cereal boxes
This example is very much like the toy in the happy meal. The aspect I didn't go into depth about in my previous post was how a simple reinforcer then strengthens corresponding associations through classical conditioning so that the reinforcer is not even needed anymore. Thus the funny character on the box can over time evoke the same response as the "reward" of the toy for opening the box and eating the cereal.
Or for a non-food example:
In the newspaper... the comics, the crossword, the horoscope, and advice columns... none of which qualify as news, except arguably the horoscope, since in theory they are providing people very relevant and personal news.
Again, these are very weak reinforcers. None of these play a major symbolic role in an adults life. A toy on the other hand encompasses a large symbolic value in a child's life as that is mostly what children spend their time doing, playing and experimenting with toys of various sorts. Having a child do something (like eat) and then handing the kid a toy in response has a much stronger effect than the things you listed for multiple reasons. The effect is even stronger when younger when the child hasn't developed the cognitive faculties and is even more influential by basic behavioral learning.
Do not misunderstand me, I do not think that a happy meal toy dooms a kid to eat fast food the rest of his life. And actually if the kid is reinforced with stronger reinforcers to an alternative behavior then he or she will probably soon forget all about happy meals. But face it, that isn't what many parents do. Instead they continually eat there and the cycle of behavior and reinforcement continues. That is my point. The toy is important in the process because of the meaning it has for a kid. A toy for most kids is of far greater significance than something minor like a fortune cookie for an adult (typically the cost of the meal to get the cookie far outweighs the benefit of obtaining the reinforcer cookie).
What all of these things have in common is that they are add-ons not directly connected to the obvious purpose of the product, and they are included because more people like them enough to cover the additional cost then reject the product for the increased cost. They're not cocaine, its not sinister, its fools who think they know what's best because everyone else are stupid sheep that are the real problem, because they focus on one thing, get hysterical, and ignore all the parallel cases.
No, they aren't cocaine. Again, I never claimed they were but they are marketing ploys that use a basic and powerful principle of human behavior and learning to get kids to want their product. Again, toys are especially powerful with kids because they don't have the range of alternative behaviors that adults have and they don't have the cognitive skills that adults have to deduce a cost/benefits analysis of eating fast food. Toys and playing are an integral part of childhood learning. Why do you think happy meals are for kids but teenagers grow out of them and move on? One reason (certainly not the only reason)is that a toy is not reinforcing to a teenager as they no longer play with them. So, the company finds other ways to market to the teenagers (and adults) like stickers that give away free food and prizes (for adults). Another good one I've watched over the years is the restaurants letting the teens hang out there (as long as they buy something of course). McDonalds is now remodeling restaurants all over the country to make them like mini-cafes with internet access and chairs to sit and relax in. A more cozy, comfortable place to chill out and socialize and surf the net.
Many people like fortune cookies just enough to sway some people into eating there, many people go to one restaurant because they like the decor, neither of these examples, nor the Happy Meal Toy, represent legit add-ons to nutritious or delicious food in of themselves. Just as the crossword or the horoscope don't make my paper any more informative nor does the trivia on my sugar packet make my coffee any sweeter and God knows the whip cream and chocolate sprinkles on my mocha certainly aren't significantly increasing my caffeine intake. They just add something extra to the experience, and people like that something extra, so the producers give it to them. A car gets you from point A to point B, a radio is not necessary, but its popular and so its a standard feature, increasing the cost of a vehicle, the toy is the same, and I think everyone knows this, most of us have watched thousands of hours of commercials in our lives after all, you don't really think any parents thought McD's threw in toys for altruism or didn't think a kid who enjoyed the toy might be more inclined to want another Happy Meal in the future, did you?
I don't want to keep picking apart what is and what isn't a strong reinforcer. But, I will say this. No, I don;t think most parents ever really think about what the toy in the happy meal is really for. I mean they might kind of have an idea that there is something to it to get their kid's attention but they don't really understand how strong the effect can be. Personally, I blame psychologists everywhere for being very poor communicators of our craft. I regret saying this but we psychologists (I include myself) are very poor at communicating what we know to non-scientists. Many of us are so busy trying to get in to grad school or get published or land teaching positions, etc. that we often overlook the importance of the information we have and its relevance to the average person who will probably never hear about the mechanics of behavior and learning.
There are literally thousands if not millions of examples of these tiny little lures used to promote items, the only excuse to go after fast food on this while ignoring everyone else is that its bad for your health, but as Chas just pointed out, citing an article an incredibly clever fellow on this site once posted, fast food as particularly unhealthy is basically nonsense, thus removing even that incredibly thin justification. I don't think 'coco-puffs with secret treasure inside' ever fooled many adults for its health value, and as we say, if it did fool them, then the kids under their parentage have much more serious hurdles for their childhood then a slightly increased risk of cavities and obesity, like Dad's bad habit of blowing the family savings on bridges people keep selling him for low low prices.
First let me say again that I don't think that the toy is the be all end all of reinforcers for a child but it is a stronger reinforcer than what people who have been posting in here seem to think it is.
Also let me restate, I don't think legislation is really an answer. As I said, in this instance, educating parents about the effects of advertising and the psychology behind it would probably have a better result. I always opt for education over legislation. If parents are told what is going on and they choose to ignore it then they are at fault for playing into the manipulation of marketers. But just forbidding something that seems trivial even though it is not just pisses people off.
As far as the article goes, even though I think the guy who did that movie is full of shit, I am also not buying the argument that fast food isn't that bad either. I don't want to get into that one but I'll just say that there is a lot more to health then just adding up calories and fat grams. For just one example, it is becoming clearer and clearer in nutrition that not every calorie is equal and insulin response is extremely important when it comes to food intake. Maybe we can discuss that topic another time.
But wine was the great assassin of both tradition and propriety...
-Brandon Sanderson, The Way of Kings
-Brandon Sanderson, The Way of Kings
San Francisco Bans The Happy Meal
- 04/11/2010 04:00:12 AM
2007 Views
Is't it nice that we have the Food Gestapo to tell us what we can and can't eat?
*NM*
- 04/11/2010 04:46:04 AM
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*NM*
- 04/11/2010 04:46:04 AM
490 Views
It doesn't say anything about what you can and can't eat, it just says you can't be rewarded with
- 04/11/2010 11:25:31 AM
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For someone ostensibly obsessed with Germany, you sure enjoy trivializing the Holocaust.
*NM*
- 04/11/2010 11:56:49 PM
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*NM*
- 04/11/2010 11:56:49 PM
654 Views
The term has also come to mean an overly authoritarian and repressive organization
- 05/11/2010 05:54:45 AM
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now, they only really banned the toy that comes with the happy meal if it doesn't meet guidelines
- 04/11/2010 06:32:46 AM
1264 Views
the government should not have to right to say how I feed my child
- 04/11/2010 01:37:41 PM
1103 Views
I find feeding happy meals to children far more appalling.
- 04/11/2010 01:39:13 PM
1057 Views
the government limits the kind of advertising your child sees during saturday morning cartoons
- 04/11/2010 03:36:47 PM
997 Views
that isn't even close to the same thing
- 04/11/2010 04:15:09 PM
1112 Views
Don't forget the removal of more and more activity.
- 05/11/2010 12:32:03 AM
955 Views
yeah that is why kids are getting fat
- 05/11/2010 04:26:38 AM
1004 Views
wow, ever consider that political leanings have nothing to do with my opinion
- 05/11/2010 11:59:15 AM
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- 05/11/2010 11:59:15 AM
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your the one who wanted to bring your politics into it
- 05/11/2010 12:23:08 PM
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uhm, what? I said no such thing.
- 05/11/2010 12:33:22 PM
1174 Views
it is exactly the same thing you're just trying to dance around the issue
- 05/11/2010 06:31:26 AM
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saying something does not make it true
- 05/11/2010 12:17:00 PM
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I wouldn't touch the metric system with a 1.038m pole *NM*
- 04/11/2010 10:47:51 AM
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The law is just fighting a small symptom of a much bigger problem
- 04/11/2010 11:24:19 AM
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yes
- 04/11/2010 11:47:47 AM
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But they are confronted with a lot of idiot parents that create a lot of idiot children
- 05/11/2010 08:18:54 AM
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100% agree, in respect to this and other related subjects.
- 04/11/2010 01:42:32 PM
1242 Views
I don't think the toy is that big of a draw for kids, really.
- 04/11/2010 05:11:10 PM
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The toys were a definite draw for mine
- 05/11/2010 08:20:05 AM
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Perhaps
- 05/11/2010 07:41:17 PM
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You're using yourself as an example at an age when the effect will be less anyway
- 06/11/2010 07:11:11 AM
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Not a big fan of that decision, either. As for introducing the metric system: would be past time.
- 04/11/2010 12:01:41 PM
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- 04/11/2010 12:01:41 PM
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Here in Aus we have fruit bags, and water etc. options for Happy Meals
- 04/11/2010 12:32:16 PM
1080 Views
The healthier variety is starting to become more common in kids meals.
- 04/11/2010 12:50:44 PM
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milk or juice have ALWAYS been options, and every mcdonalds i've been to has offered the apples. *NM*
- 04/11/2010 01:36:34 PM
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Too bad milk and juice are horrible choices too.
*NM*
- 04/11/2010 10:54:36 PM
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*NM*
- 04/11/2010 10:54:36 PM
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uhmm, bullshit.
- 04/11/2010 11:39:09 PM
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Juice is nothing but sugar and milk as healthy is debatable.
- 05/11/2010 12:37:34 AM
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juice is not just sugar.
- 05/11/2010 02:11:12 AM
1183 Views
Here. not the best source, but assuming the nutritionist's analyzer was correct...
- 05/11/2010 02:24:18 AM
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I'm not talking about juicing vegetables and fresh fruit.
- 05/11/2010 03:06:54 AM
1144 Views
no it was not clear. You merely said "Juice"
- 05/11/2010 03:16:01 AM
1207 Views
Milk is delicious. And it (when low-fat/skim) isn't actively bad for you.
- 05/11/2010 03:33:53 AM
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I know, but...just...EW.
- 05/11/2010 03:43:49 AM
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Agreed, as long as it's treated the right way (i.e. not the American way).
*NM*
- 05/11/2010 09:56:16 AM
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*NM*
- 05/11/2010 09:56:16 AM
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Please elaborate.
- 05/11/2010 01:27:45 PM
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I remember the first time I came to Northern America (Canada, then) and tried drinking milk...
- 05/11/2010 04:44:01 PM
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You can get UHT milk
- 05/11/2010 04:47:53 PM
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Yeah, no doubt - you can get most anything in the US, but not necessarily easily.
- 05/11/2010 05:46:59 PM
1208 Views
I live in a big enough city you can get pretty much anything you want
- 05/11/2010 07:02:44 PM
992 Views
How about the water?
- 05/11/2010 06:24:09 PM
1033 Views
I remember when I lived in Germany, I found warm, boxed milk to be one of the stranger oddities.
- 05/11/2010 08:57:42 PM
1069 Views
so what do you think kids should drink?
- 05/11/2010 04:28:36 AM
1149 Views
Do this little experiment. Please.
- 05/11/2010 12:53:49 PM
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that is why my kids drinks milk or water and not juice 99% of time
- 05/11/2010 02:03:08 PM
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Of course!
- 05/11/2010 02:11:35 PM
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I am fighting my wife right now over the yogurt in a tube crap
- 05/11/2010 02:35:41 PM
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Ha! You should do the sugar measuring with her. It'll show her how much is in that 1 little tube. *NM*
- 05/11/2010 04:00:55 PM
484 Views
they have the option but i'm sure that fruit has 1200mg of sodium in it somehow
*NM*
- 05/11/2010 06:35:36 AM
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*NM*
- 05/11/2010 06:35:36 AM
670 Views
I'm going to go set up the black market for happy meals in San Francisco.
- 04/11/2010 01:21:34 PM
1164 Views
so in otherwords...Happy Meals in San Francisco don't come with toys anymore?
- 04/11/2010 01:38:03 PM
995 Views
This is pretty stupid.
- 04/11/2010 02:13:17 PM
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That part was a bit of hyperbole, I'm afraid.
*NM*
- 04/11/2010 03:01:52 PM
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*NM*
- 04/11/2010 03:01:52 PM
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Not very much!
- 04/11/2010 03:04:58 PM
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I feel so exploited now
- 04/11/2010 03:31:26 PM
1409 Views
*dons detective hat* Very interesting...
- 04/11/2010 03:35:08 PM
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Re: *dons detective hat* Very interesting...
- 04/11/2010 03:57:04 PM
1231 Views
Another hint
- 04/11/2010 04:02:54 PM
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Re: Another hint
- 04/11/2010 04:23:28 PM
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Ah, Republicans and sex scandals. They go together like beer and kebabs,
- 04/11/2010 04:29:19 PM
1031 Views
All we need is for someone else to pay for our national defense and we can do it *NM*
- 04/11/2010 04:16:28 PM
657 Views
They should ban something which may have effect instead.
- 04/11/2010 02:27:05 PM
1248 Views
The toys do have effect. It's a positive reinforcer to eating the meal.
- 04/11/2010 10:57:49 PM
986 Views
What a bunch of morons.
- 04/11/2010 06:45:31 PM
1264 Views
these are the same people who keep sending Pelosi back year after year *NM*
- 04/11/2010 06:49:16 PM
496 Views
I accidentally posted this in the wrong spot. I reposted below to the original thread.
- 04/11/2010 11:22:32 PM
1194 Views
- 04/11/2010 11:22:32 PM
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Re:
- 05/11/2010 12:02:41 AM
1045 Views
I'm not sure what your point is.
- 05/11/2010 12:42:14 AM
992 Views
That fast food is not inherently bad/unhealthy.
- 05/11/2010 01:16:51 AM
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Re: That fast food is not inherently bad/unhealthy.
- 05/11/2010 04:17:27 AM
1222 Views
In that case: Yes, there's always a new meat sack/flesh puppet around the next corner. *NM*
- 05/11/2010 09:38:57 PM
657 Views
Many here don't seem to understand the purpose of the toy.
- 05/11/2010 12:43:27 AM
1239 Views
I think you should assume we're not idiots
- 05/11/2010 02:05:51 AM
1067 Views
- 05/11/2010 02:05:51 AM
1067 Views
I never said anybody was an idiot.
- 05/11/2010 04:09:51 AM
1380 Views
kids of the happy meal age should not be deciding what they get to eat
- 05/11/2010 04:37:43 AM
1282 Views
Re: kids of the happy meal age should not be deciding what they get to eat
- 05/11/2010 06:27:21 PM
1148 Views
without a doubt parents need to be aware of marketing used to influence their kids
- 05/11/2010 07:29:06 PM
1092 Views
Your overly-simplified psychology is wrong
- 05/11/2010 01:58:55 PM
1216 Views
raw milk is banned because of the potential of illness.
- 05/11/2010 06:20:01 PM
1154 Views
You miss my point (or helped me make it)
- 05/11/2010 07:58:59 PM
1043 Views
because raw milk SALE AND DISTRIBUTION does not only affect the individual.
- 05/11/2010 08:37:10 PM
1337 Views
Excuse me, I have a degree in psychology and I have oversimplified nothing.
- 05/11/2010 06:42:24 PM
1301 Views
Like others have said...
- 05/11/2010 08:03:09 PM
1236 Views
if they wanted to have a real impact they would ban drive throughs *NM*
- 05/11/2010 04:39:52 AM
623 Views
Yet again government not letting people make their own decisions
- 10/11/2010 03:01:15 AM
1261 Views

*NM*