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Answers. Vivien Send a noteboard - 12/04/2011 09:05:38 PM
The anomalies:

The thing is, we remember the dreams that *do* come true. What about all the dreams that didn't, and you forgot them soon after? All the signs of this unseen force are not great evidence because this is evidence that's self selecting. If you did many many experiments and you only paid attention to the data points that you like, that wouldn't be very scientific.

And hey, maybe psychic instances can be in the future explained by some off shoot of quantum mechanics. Maybe you really did predict the future in a dream or two and it's because the atoms aligned in a specific way. It's all probability functions. According to quantum mechanics, nothing is impossible but it's all just extremely improbable.

Yes, that's a huge roadblock to atheism- it's viewed as too depressing.

Hey Tom- do you want to hang out with skeptics? There's Drinking with Atheists, there's Drinking Skeptically, etc. Tomorrow evening is a meet up of the "Jolly Thirteen" club that's all about fun with superstitions. It's at an afghani restaurant near Midtown tomorrow starting at 8 pm. We get together on the 13'th of every month. Let me know.


For me, there are certain experiences that cannot be adequately explained through a traditional understanding of space, time, life and death. The fact that we are unable to measure them does not mean they are not affecting us. An (admittedly imperfect) analogy would be a blind person unable to prove the sun exists. Yes, he can step outside and feel warmth, but he can do that on cloudy days or even at night in the summer.

I realize that of course the sun is easier to measure and quantify, but that is perhaps because there are plenty of people who aren't blind. Imagine, however, a force that none of us are able to sense well, but that some people sense in little isolated instances. Measuring this force would be difficult because observation would not be consistent enough.

Taking this sense that people have of the divine and writing "conclusive" books about these experiences is sheer folly and leads to the oppression of religious dogma. On the other hand...how do I explain the dreams that come true? My friend continues to tell people how I told him, in the Summer of 2001, that he should move out of downtown NY because I dreamt of a major terrorist attack and told him about it. Why did I tell him in the first place? Because I had a dream, exactly one week before the event, that detailed a friend's fatal car accident, down to the road, the weather conditions, and the fact that the friend had been secretly dating another friend of mine. I told my friend living downtown about this dream and he said, "Tell me if you ever dream about something that could affect me." I also dreamed, a few months before it happened, that I was standing in Manhattan and looking at the river and a plane was floating down it. I told my friends about this one, and when that plane landed in the Hudson my friends looked at me.

Is that evidence of God? Certainly not, at least not in a scientific sense. Do I feel that there is "something" that is going on that I can't fully appreciate? Certainly. Additional anecdotal evidence through history shows that I am not alone in seeing dreams as having some sort of meaning.

I'm not ready to draw specific conclusions, but I'm very interested in attempts to investigate, in a serious manner, these sorts of "spiritual" events.

Of course, the only reason I wouldn't recommend going from agnostic to atheist is that it's a bit depressing. However, it's certainly a reasonable step if you're that convinced. Just don't let your conviction close your eyes to anomalies in the world around you!
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Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 03:06:54 AM 2229 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 03:23:00 AM 1204 Views
All right. - 12/04/2011 05:50:08 AM 1176 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 06:27:14 AM 1158 Views
It would really depend on the mechanism - 12/04/2011 06:28:24 AM 1037 Views
You assume we all know, and agree on, what "soul" means. - 12/04/2011 08:42:47 AM 1079 Views
It is what hope, which is a thing with feathers, perches on. - 12/04/2011 07:32:07 PM 1139 Views
But seriously, what does it do? - 12/04/2011 11:01:58 PM 1137 Views
It makes poems pretty. - 13/04/2011 07:00:03 PM 1159 Views
Re: Yeah, exactly. - 15/04/2011 02:43:24 AM 1126 Views
Just going off the 'reborn' thing.. - 12/04/2011 08:53:28 AM 1058 Views
Hm. - 12/04/2011 03:22:01 PM 1182 Views
Agreed. - 12/04/2011 05:49:11 PM 1025 Views
it wouldn't change much for me, but I'm pretty flexible in my spiritual beliefs - 12/04/2011 04:23:34 PM 1170 Views
This. *NM* - 13/04/2011 04:15:11 PM 618 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 05:44:53 PM 1231 Views
What a fantasy. - 12/04/2011 07:57:38 PM 1089 Views
What happened to two? *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:20:41 PM 622 Views
Thanks, I fixed it. *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:29:20 PM 633 Views
Your comments, or mine? - 13/04/2011 01:24:53 AM 1564 Views
You get one guess. - 13/04/2011 07:09:01 PM 1287 Views
One dismissive answer deserves another. - 24/04/2011 12:54:44 AM 1181 Views
I'm a Christian who is partial to reincarnation, so I do not think much would change. - 12/04/2011 06:21:36 PM 1129 Views
*is disappointed* *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:01:05 PM 558 Views
You'd be surprised how frequently I get that from both sides. - 12/04/2011 08:22:24 PM 1111 Views
I bet you do! - 12/04/2011 08:47:59 PM 1075 Views
Re: I bet you do! - 13/04/2011 04:02:07 AM 1089 Views
Does it really? - 24/04/2011 01:09:34 AM 1010 Views
OMG! - 14/04/2011 06:19:50 PM 1102 Views
Go expand his worldview. *NM* - 14/04/2011 06:56:03 PM 585 Views
I think we are similar in some respects philosophically. - 13/04/2011 05:59:38 AM 1063 Views
Who says.... - 13/04/2011 07:11:24 PM 1020 Views
So then my question is.... - 13/04/2011 07:08:42 PM 1019 Views
Because I believe that Jesus was an incarnation of the λόγος. - 14/04/2011 12:36:36 AM 1046 Views
*heh* - 14/04/2011 04:12:32 PM 1164 Views
I think I answered it pretty clearly in my post title. *NM* - 14/04/2011 06:59:47 PM 639 Views
Actually, you didn't. - 15/04/2011 12:12:42 AM 1120 Views
Re: Actually, you didn't. - 24/04/2011 09:04:04 AM 1098 Views
I think that, like a lot of other people responding, I would want and need more information. - 12/04/2011 07:13:14 PM 1052 Views
Speaking of the agnostic/atheist thing - 12/04/2011 07:40:04 PM 1108 Views
99% that there is no God... - 12/04/2011 08:08:42 PM 1157 Views
Technically, no, atheists simply lack belief in a God. - 12/04/2011 08:19:15 PM 1090 Views
Whoah there, - 12/04/2011 08:26:43 PM 1076 Views
Okay, I have to admit I wasn't expecting to get called out on that. - 13/04/2011 04:03:08 AM 1182 Views
no I think that's just the literal definition... - 12/04/2011 11:19:18 PM 1012 Views
Isn't that what "technically" would imply? - 13/04/2011 04:04:42 AM 1208 Views
It certainly doesn't mean you can't make conclusions. - 12/04/2011 08:09:41 PM 1174 Views
Re: Campbell: - 12/04/2011 08:42:09 PM 1162 Views
Self-identification is an interesting point here. - 12/04/2011 09:00:46 PM 1093 Views
Re: Agree - 12/04/2011 09:22:22 PM 1105 Views
Answers. - 12/04/2011 09:05:38 PM 1067 Views
That's not a compelling counter-argument for me. - 12/04/2011 11:22:21 PM 1238 Views
Never mind. - 12/04/2011 11:34:46 PM 1032 Views
be sure to post if it does happen *NM* - 12/04/2011 11:56:17 PM 574 Views
Have you had any vivid dreams that came true? - 13/04/2011 01:16:59 AM 1008 Views
My mom used to have dreams like that, usually about relatives. - 13/04/2011 02:25:45 AM 1195 Views
I can easily believe that. - 13/04/2011 06:14:51 AM 1009 Views
Minivans can fit lots of useful stuffs, like furniture. *NM* - 13/04/2011 03:47:04 PM 638 Views
So can gas-guzzling SUVs, and full trucks. *NM* - 13/04/2011 05:13:20 PM 589 Views
for that matter, you can fit a surprising amount even in a baby truck! *NM* - 13/04/2011 06:36:58 PM 569 Views
I'd find it quite comforting - 12/04/2011 07:40:09 PM 1035 Views
Well, as I said in my census form on Sunday - 12/04/2011 08:36:05 PM 1198 Views
Pythagoras was a total nut. - 12/04/2011 10:05:42 PM 1154 Views
True - 12/04/2011 10:13:43 PM 1050 Views
It would upset my belief in science - 12/04/2011 09:39:39 PM 1201 Views
There's so much wrong with that statement. - 12/04/2011 09:55:45 PM 1178 Views
If science proved there really was an Easter Bunny would it affect your believe in science? *NM* - 12/04/2011 10:30:09 PM 679 Views
*is both bored and annoyed* - 12/04/2011 11:03:10 PM 1068 Views
right. - 12/04/2011 11:18:31 PM 1267 Views
and what if science proved that science was false? - 12/04/2011 11:48:32 PM 1141 Views
I think that's kind of the point; it can't. - 13/04/2011 01:33:44 AM 1014 Views
Did you read my original post? - 13/04/2011 03:13:34 AM 983 Views
I did, yes. - 13/04/2011 03:32:18 AM 1027 Views
Yes it would upset my belief in science, why is that so hard to accept - 13/04/2011 01:56:59 PM 1134 Views
What's a soul? - 12/04/2011 10:51:39 PM 1052 Views
I can only give you my personal take. - 13/04/2011 01:47:39 AM 1180 Views
so did this guy took a railroad spike through the head - 13/04/2011 01:58:52 PM 1197 Views
Nah, he just got someone else's added to him. But now Ruin can influence him. *NM* - 13/04/2011 06:38:31 PM 641 Views
Thanks a lot - 13/04/2011 07:02:29 PM 1058 Views
No. - 23/04/2011 09:15:16 PM 1075 Views
but we know personality can be draticaly altered by physical means - 24/04/2011 03:28:36 AM 1387 Views
"We" don't know that; that's the problem. - 24/04/2011 07:02:49 AM 1216 Views
Can one have an identity without memory? *NM* - 13/04/2011 03:46:16 PM 606 Views
Sure. - 23/04/2011 08:53:51 PM 907 Views
Re: My question about souls: who will save your souuuuls? *NM* - 13/04/2011 04:04:21 AM 607 Views
I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space - 13/04/2011 04:00:51 PM 1055 Views
Re: I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space - 14/04/2011 03:29:55 AM 1132 Views
Sorry :-) - 14/04/2011 10:15:30 AM 1143 Views
Interesting concept.... - 13/04/2011 07:28:42 PM 1033 Views
Heh. Loose faith. - 14/04/2011 02:32:27 AM 1035 Views
It kinda still works though....doesn't it? - 14/04/2011 04:14:19 PM 1053 Views
it does work. well in fact! *NM* - 24/04/2011 03:24:25 AM 585 Views
Oooh... - 14/04/2011 04:31:30 AM 1116 Views
Who says..... - 14/04/2011 04:26:31 PM 1171 Views
Wow, thanks for all the responses!! - 14/04/2011 03:42:38 AM 1180 Views

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