The anomalies:
The thing is, we remember the dreams that *do* come true. What about all the dreams that didn't, and you forgot them soon after? All the signs of this unseen force are not great evidence because this is evidence that's self selecting. If you did many many experiments and you only paid attention to the data points that you like, that wouldn't be very scientific.
And hey, maybe psychic instances can be in the future explained by some off shoot of quantum mechanics. Maybe you really did predict the future in a dream or two and it's because the atoms aligned in a specific way. It's all probability functions. According to quantum mechanics, nothing is impossible but it's all just extremely improbable.
Yes, that's a huge roadblock to atheism- it's viewed as too depressing.
Hey Tom- do you want to hang out with skeptics? There's Drinking with Atheists, there's Drinking Skeptically, etc. Tomorrow evening is a meet up of the "Jolly Thirteen" club that's all about fun with superstitions. It's at an afghani restaurant near Midtown tomorrow starting at 8 pm. We get together on the 13'th of every month. Let me know.
The thing is, we remember the dreams that *do* come true. What about all the dreams that didn't, and you forgot them soon after? All the signs of this unseen force are not great evidence because this is evidence that's self selecting. If you did many many experiments and you only paid attention to the data points that you like, that wouldn't be very scientific.
And hey, maybe psychic instances can be in the future explained by some off shoot of quantum mechanics. Maybe you really did predict the future in a dream or two and it's because the atoms aligned in a specific way. It's all probability functions. According to quantum mechanics, nothing is impossible but it's all just extremely improbable.
Yes, that's a huge roadblock to atheism- it's viewed as too depressing.
Hey Tom- do you want to hang out with skeptics? There's Drinking with Atheists, there's Drinking Skeptically, etc. Tomorrow evening is a meet up of the "Jolly Thirteen" club that's all about fun with superstitions. It's at an afghani restaurant near Midtown tomorrow starting at 8 pm. We get together on the 13'th of every month. Let me know.
For me, there are certain experiences that cannot be adequately explained through a traditional understanding of space, time, life and death. The fact that we are unable to measure them does not mean they are not affecting us. An (admittedly imperfect) analogy would be a blind person unable to prove the sun exists. Yes, he can step outside and feel warmth, but he can do that on cloudy days or even at night in the summer.
I realize that of course the sun is easier to measure and quantify, but that is perhaps because there are plenty of people who aren't blind. Imagine, however, a force that none of us are able to sense well, but that some people sense in little isolated instances. Measuring this force would be difficult because observation would not be consistent enough.
Taking this sense that people have of the divine and writing "conclusive" books about these experiences is sheer folly and leads to the oppression of religious dogma. On the other hand...how do I explain the dreams that come true? My friend continues to tell people how I told him, in the Summer of 2001, that he should move out of downtown NY because I dreamt of a major terrorist attack and told him about it. Why did I tell him in the first place? Because I had a dream, exactly one week before the event, that detailed a friend's fatal car accident, down to the road, the weather conditions, and the fact that the friend had been secretly dating another friend of mine. I told my friend living downtown about this dream and he said, "Tell me if you ever dream about something that could affect me." I also dreamed, a few months before it happened, that I was standing in Manhattan and looking at the river and a plane was floating down it. I told my friends about this one, and when that plane landed in the Hudson my friends looked at me.
Is that evidence of God? Certainly not, at least not in a scientific sense. Do I feel that there is "something" that is going on that I can't fully appreciate? Certainly. Additional anecdotal evidence through history shows that I am not alone in seeing dreams as having some sort of meaning.
I'm not ready to draw specific conclusions, but I'm very interested in attempts to investigate, in a serious manner, these sorts of "spiritual" events.
Of course, the only reason I wouldn't recommend going from agnostic to atheist is that it's a bit depressing. However, it's certainly a reasonable step if you're that convinced. Just don't let your conviction close your eyes to anomalies in the world around you!
I realize that of course the sun is easier to measure and quantify, but that is perhaps because there are plenty of people who aren't blind. Imagine, however, a force that none of us are able to sense well, but that some people sense in little isolated instances. Measuring this force would be difficult because observation would not be consistent enough.
Taking this sense that people have of the divine and writing "conclusive" books about these experiences is sheer folly and leads to the oppression of religious dogma. On the other hand...how do I explain the dreams that come true? My friend continues to tell people how I told him, in the Summer of 2001, that he should move out of downtown NY because I dreamt of a major terrorist attack and told him about it. Why did I tell him in the first place? Because I had a dream, exactly one week before the event, that detailed a friend's fatal car accident, down to the road, the weather conditions, and the fact that the friend had been secretly dating another friend of mine. I told my friend living downtown about this dream and he said, "Tell me if you ever dream about something that could affect me." I also dreamed, a few months before it happened, that I was standing in Manhattan and looking at the river and a plane was floating down it. I told my friends about this one, and when that plane landed in the Hudson my friends looked at me.
Is that evidence of God? Certainly not, at least not in a scientific sense. Do I feel that there is "something" that is going on that I can't fully appreciate? Certainly. Additional anecdotal evidence through history shows that I am not alone in seeing dreams as having some sort of meaning.
I'm not ready to draw specific conclusions, but I'm very interested in attempts to investigate, in a serious manner, these sorts of "spiritual" events.
Of course, the only reason I wouldn't recommend going from agnostic to atheist is that it's a bit depressing. However, it's certainly a reasonable step if you're that convinced. Just don't let your conviction close your eyes to anomalies in the world around you!
Questions about souls...
12/04/2011 03:06:54 AM
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You assume we all know, and agree on, what "soul" means.
12/04/2011 08:42:47 AM
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It is what hope, which is a thing with feathers, perches on.
12/04/2011 07:32:07 PM
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But seriously, what does it do?
12/04/2011 11:01:58 PM
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it wouldn't change much for me, but I'm pretty flexible in my spiritual beliefs
12/04/2011 04:23:34 PM
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Re: Questions about souls...
12/04/2011 05:44:53 PM
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What a fantasy.
12/04/2011 07:57:38 PM
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Your comments, or mine?
13/04/2011 01:24:53 AM
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I'm a Christian who is partial to reincarnation, so I do not think much would change.
12/04/2011 06:21:36 PM
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*is disappointed* *NM*
12/04/2011 08:01:05 PM
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You'd be surprised how frequently I get that from both sides.
12/04/2011 08:22:24 PM
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I bet you do!
12/04/2011 08:47:59 PM
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I think we are similar in some respects philosophically.
13/04/2011 05:59:38 AM
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That's pretty much how I feel. Being a universalist helps in that respect. *NM*
13/04/2011 06:25:34 AM
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So then my question is....
13/04/2011 07:08:42 PM
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Because I believe that Jesus was an incarnation of the λόγος.
14/04/2011 12:36:36 AM
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*heh*
14/04/2011 04:12:32 PM
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I think I answered it pretty clearly in my post title. *NM*
14/04/2011 06:59:47 PM
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I think that, like a lot of other people responding, I would want and need more information.
12/04/2011 07:13:14 PM
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Speaking of the agnostic/atheist thing
12/04/2011 07:40:04 PM
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99% that there is no God...
12/04/2011 08:08:42 PM
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Technically, no, atheists simply lack belief in a God.
12/04/2011 08:19:15 PM
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Whoah there,
12/04/2011 08:26:43 PM
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Okay, I have to admit I wasn't expecting to get called out on that.
13/04/2011 04:03:08 AM
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And that's why I don't quibble with %'s, I just say I'm an atheist
*NM*
12/04/2011 09:45:31 PM
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It certainly doesn't mean you can't make conclusions.
12/04/2011 08:09:41 PM
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Re: Campbell:
12/04/2011 08:42:09 PM
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Self-identification is an interesting point here.
12/04/2011 09:00:46 PM
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Re: Agree
12/04/2011 09:22:22 PM
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Sadly enough, one of my favorite explanations of religion came from someone discussing a video game.
13/04/2011 04:12:23 AM
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Re: I'm basically a Magi. I'm going to travel to Brazil and then take over the world. *NM*
13/04/2011 04:18:25 AM
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Either you meant "Magus" or you are a schizophrenic wizard. Both are acceptably awesome.
13/04/2011 05:37:34 AM
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Re: I think it was Jarod Diamond...
14/04/2011 03:39:32 AM
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Answers.
12/04/2011 09:05:38 PM
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That's not a compelling counter-argument for me.
12/04/2011 11:22:21 PM
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Never mind.
12/04/2011 11:34:46 PM
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Have you had any vivid dreams that came true?
13/04/2011 01:16:59 AM
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My mom used to have dreams like that, usually about relatives.
13/04/2011 02:25:45 AM
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I can easily believe that.
13/04/2011 06:14:51 AM
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Taking things at face value is usually unwise, but the face value can still be correct.
24/04/2011 12:11:51 AM
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Minivans can fit lots of useful stuffs, like furniture. *NM*
13/04/2011 03:47:04 PM
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So can gas-guzzling SUVs, and full trucks. *NM*
13/04/2011 05:13:20 PM
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for that matter, you can fit a surprising amount even in a baby truck! *NM*
13/04/2011 06:36:58 PM
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Well, as I said in my census form on Sunday
12/04/2011 08:36:05 PM
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It would upset my belief in science
12/04/2011 09:39:39 PM
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There's so much wrong with that statement.
12/04/2011 09:55:45 PM
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If science proved there really was an Easter Bunny would it affect your believe in science? *NM*
12/04/2011 10:30:09 PM
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*is both bored and annoyed*
12/04/2011 11:03:10 PM
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and what if science proved that science was false?
12/04/2011 11:48:32 PM
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I think that's kind of the point; it can't.
13/04/2011 01:33:44 AM
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Did you read my original post?
13/04/2011 03:13:34 AM
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I did, yes.
13/04/2011 03:32:18 AM
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Yes it would upset my belief in science, why is that so hard to accept
13/04/2011 01:56:59 PM
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Well, if that's all it is, we know that a lot of that broad base is wrong.
24/04/2011 01:18:05 AM
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What's a soul?
12/04/2011 10:51:39 PM
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I can only give you my personal take.
13/04/2011 01:47:39 AM
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Actually the reason you don't revive people denied oxygen half an hour is due to chemical processes.
13/04/2011 04:08:37 AM
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True, but even well preserved brains require more than a jump start to resume life.
23/04/2011 09:20:42 PM
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so did this guy took a railroad spike through the head
13/04/2011 01:58:52 PM
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Nah, he just got someone else's added to him. But now Ruin can influence him.
*NM*
13/04/2011 06:38:31 PM
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Thanks a lot
13/04/2011 07:02:29 PM
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I'm really happy you've read them and got the reference. Phineas Gage, Steel Inquisitor.
*NM*
14/04/2011 12:29:01 AM
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No.
23/04/2011 09:15:16 PM
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but we know personality can be draticaly altered by physical means
24/04/2011 03:28:36 AM
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I assume you're implying time travel between past-life or future-life experiences.
12/04/2011 11:26:19 PM
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I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space
13/04/2011 04:00:51 PM
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Re: I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space
14/04/2011 03:29:55 AM
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Interesting concept....
13/04/2011 07:28:42 PM
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Heh. Loose faith.
14/04/2011 02:32:27 AM
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