Couldn't resist. Long lurk, no see; how's tricks? Thoughts on the British referendum? How badly does the US need instant runoffs if Obama can't get an approval rating of 50% and the Republican House is lucky to get half that? Oh, and comments on my use of inexact polling in this thread are welcome if you want to avoid an outright threadjack. 

What we need to institute is something condorcet complete like Borda. Borda's good.
Wikipedias example illustrates that: Fifty voters rank a right, center and left candidate. Thirty right voters rank them R-2, C-1, L-0. Twenty center left voters rank them C-2, L-1, R-0. The final tally is C-70, R-60, L-20. The center candidate wins despite a right majority, and despite the fact the right candidate would win a two candidate race against either of the others, so Borda isn't Condorcet complete either.
Further, tactical voting could (and, I suspect, often would) make a consensus second choice NO ONE chose first defeat a majority first choice. A simple example would be 50 people choosing 4 candidates. Thirty right voters rank them FR-4, CR-3, CL-2, FL-1. Twenty left voters vote tactically and rank them FL-4, CR-3, CL-2, FR-1. The final tally is FR-140, CR-150, CL-100, FL-110. The center right candidate wins despite a far right majority, and even though the far right candidate would win a two candidate election against any other, so once again, not Condorcet complete. If the minority doesn't vote tactically, the result is the same as an ideal FPtP system. Ironically, tactical FPtP voting means America already elects the least objectionable candidate in practice, so the only difference I see is that Borda is designed to produce PTtPs accidental result, and wouldn't really change much in the US.
In this list, monotonicity is the only thing I want that Borda has and Instant Runoff doesn't, but I prefer the IR guarantee of a majority and mutual majority winner Borda lacks. Without a mutual majority guarantee minorities voting the party to prevent the other side winning can reduce elections to moderate and far minority candidates (not that that ever happens in the US.
) I realize chances a system WILL violate a criterion if it CAN are debateable, but that could go around in circles all day so I'm not going there. 
IRV bugs me inherently because it's possible for a candidate moving his stances in the direction of the majority of opinion to actually cause him to lose. See the link below.
In each one of those grids, consider each point to be a simulated "average opinion." If each person on the grid voted for the candidate which was closest to them on the grid in accordance with the candidates' positions (ranking, approval, etc) then the color of the grid at that point is who would end up winning. Now, yes, this assumes that every person has complete knowledge of all candidates and votes logically, which doesn't happen, but for the purpose of visualizing outcomes, it's useful.
Plurality and Hare (IRV) are both awful. Plurality squeezes out moderate candidates, while Hare is all over the place. Approval and Condorcet are basically identical in most cases, while Borda is very similar to both, but emphasizes the moderate candidates more.
I think it's just an interesting way of visually depicting who would win in each.
Put in those terms, I can see your point, but because I prefer the varies ranking systems to FPtP I'm (perhaps unduly) attached to later no harm, because without a guarantee people giving ANY vote to a less preferred candidate won't cause your most preferred one to lose it'll be hard to sell people on it and we'll be stuck with FPtP forever. If I could pick any one of the systems I've seen proposed I'd probably go with Ranked Pairs, but it seems too complex to get popular approval (a smart chimp could follow IR and a lot of people STILL have trouble with it.
) Perhaps worse, it also doesn't guarantee you giving a lesser vote to someone you like less won't cost your favorite candidate the election. I can handle weird results as long as there's SOME logic to them, and if I'm following the graphs it seems like even in the most bizarre looking IR simulations IR a logic can be found. For example, in the last (and weirdest looking) case there's a yellow triangle pretty much dead center of the red victory region. Since red has a greater y value and x value, if public opinion shifts from right of the triangle to the left it moves toward both while maintaining reds greater vertical distance; past a point yellows vertical advantage outweighs reds horizontal one and makes it the winner until public opinion is nearly even with red horizontally and red is again the winner. Effects of a vertical opinion shift are more pronounced because it increases the relative size of reds greater vertical distance, so less horizontal shift is generally necessary to make yellow the winner. The exception is that if the vertical position was always close to both red and yellow a horizontal shift left is more significant than an upward one and a win for yellow becomes a win for red. In all cases once public opinion gets VERY close to both vertical positions OR reds horizontal position red wins. The effect is a region of voters horizontally closer to red but occasionaly more concerned about reds greater vertical distance from yellow (despite being fairly distant from both themselves).
It's significant, I think, that in that simulation yellow has the LOWEST y value of the four AND is the closest candidate to red over all. It's a case where a single issue with strong public opinion can yield a surprising outcome, because if voters generally approve reds platform but are very extreme on that one issue red may not be close enough to their views, and they'll choose the most extreme candidate who's otherwise most like red. Red can only win if public opinion is VERY close to him on all other issues. In effect, it's a case where being moderate on EVERYTHING gets red beaten by a yellow candidate who's moderate on everything except the one issue on which the public is also extreme.
Maybe I'm fitting the data to my curve here; I can't be entirely sure, but that's my take: Just because the graph looks funny doesn't mean it's not representative, because electorates often look funny, too. Regardless, it looks like my choice ultimate choice is between systems that can penalize a candidate for shifting his position toward the majority or those that can penalize a voter for ranking candidates. Neither of those is ideal, obviously, but the former is less objectionable to me than the latter, particularly since it will take major public approval to implement either, and the general public will always be more concerned about hurting themselves than hurting their candidates.
After all that, I'm still very attached to mutual majority guarantees as well, because I still believe America's a center left country (at least in global terms) that's nonetheless had mostly center right and right Presidents since the war. To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about mutual majority, in 2000 I would've been happy with either Bradley or Gore (the Dem primary candidates), Nader (the Green nominee) or McCain (the GOP primary loser), but after six years of George Bush as my Governor the prospect of his presidency horrified me, yet the reality exceeded my worst nightmares. In my book, the Condorcet loser won, when a mutual majority system would've guaranteed me Nader, Gore or Bradely, all of whom would have eminently satisfied me. Given a choice between Condorcet completion or a mutual majority and later no harm guarantee, I'll miss monotonicity, but not as much as I'd miss the other two.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Wishlist
- 09/05/2011 08:26:23 AM
6211 Views
I thought we already had one
- 09/05/2011 11:45:34 AM
1801 Views
That is essentially Goodreads. *NM*
- 09/05/2011 02:42:06 PM
971 Views
I specifically noted I do not want it to become a Librarything/Goodreads copy.
- 09/05/2011 09:16:27 PM
1719 Views
Wotmania content (FAQ, Theory post, personality test, etc.) and Chat *NM*
- 09/05/2011 02:53:08 PM
1042 Views
Also agree here, at least where intellectual property isn't an issue.
- 09/05/2011 06:41:27 PM
1731 Views
The Books MB, for example, has had more posts than the WoTMB in the past while.
- 09/05/2011 08:20:04 PM
1692 Views
I think the BMB is the future, but am not convinced it's the present, or the road to the future.
- 09/05/2011 09:58:01 PM
2000 Views
Or there is just a link between WoT fans and answering the quick poll.
- 09/05/2011 10:27:18 PM
1710 Views
I did consider that possibility, yes.
- 10/05/2011 02:24:02 AM
1711 Views
Re: I did consider that possibility, yes.
- 10/05/2011 11:11:37 AM
1628 Views
Like I say, the data doesn't allow for certainty, but I've seen no data contrary to my premise.
- 11/05/2011 08:49:28 AM
1725 Views
Re: Wotmania content (FAQ, Theory post, personality test, etc.) and Chat
- 22/07/2011 05:35:32 AM
1648 Views
A new messageboard style
- 09/05/2011 06:49:10 PM
1997 Views
I hate other bulletin board styles. Hate.
- 09/05/2011 06:55:31 PM
1917 Views
- 09/05/2011 07:14:56 PM
1779 Views
*NM*
- 11/05/2011 06:36:55 AM
912 Views
Well. I half agree with that.
- 09/05/2011 08:35:41 PM
1802 Views
Help thing?
- 09/05/2011 09:55:18 PM
1741 Views
Yes. The Help link on every page which currently goes nowhere. *NM*
- 09/05/2011 10:21:09 PM
1025 Views
phpBB has an "ignore" option
- 09/05/2011 10:50:39 PM
2869 Views
The thing is its the fun awesome people who do the tangents
- 09/05/2011 10:58:42 PM
1802 Views
1996 is over
- 09/05/2011 11:52:48 PM
1651 Views
THe option to show posts with newest replies first allows for that
- 09/05/2011 11:57:57 PM
1667 Views
a few things
- 10/05/2011 12:05:50 AM
1636 Views
I'm surprised to have gotten this strong of a reaction
- 10/05/2011 12:30:21 AM
1681 Views
For what it's worth
- 10/05/2011 12:45:45 AM
1886 Views
Re: For what it's worth
- 10/05/2011 08:29:08 AM
1698 Views
It's possible
- 10/05/2011 11:45:26 AM
1765 Views
Re: It's possible
- 10/05/2011 12:02:51 PM
1727 Views
No, I got it
- 10/05/2011 01:03:59 PM
1681 Views
Re: No, I got it
- 10/05/2011 01:14:01 PM
1791 Views
Re: No, I got it
- 10/05/2011 04:42:57 PM
1718 Views
Re: No, I got it
- 10/05/2011 04:52:06 PM
1640 Views
Yes
- 10/05/2011 05:10:07 PM
1705 Views
There's a firefox extension "interclue" that allows you to preview webpages before clicking links
- 10/05/2011 05:18:05 PM
1590 Views
This site has what, 10% or so percent of wotmania's activity in its heyday?
- 10/05/2011 10:45:51 PM
1865 Views
I used to spend quite a lot of time on other sites.
- 10/05/2011 12:14:09 PM
1662 Views
Which type of sites?
- 10/05/2011 01:06:32 PM
1546 Views
I actually had no idea to whom this response was directed.
- 11/05/2011 07:10:32 PM
1620 Views
I agree with everything Rebakah and F&R said. I loathe the bulletin board style. *NM*
- 09/05/2011 07:12:53 PM
975 Views
I think forcing either style on anyone tends to discourage membership from those who want the other.
- 09/05/2011 08:23:13 PM
1792 Views
This is a good alternative,
- 09/05/2011 08:39:07 PM
1799 Views
Thanks; you can't please everyone, but this seems like the closest we'll get.
- 09/05/2011 10:25:00 PM
2149 Views
Nice assumption
- 09/05/2011 10:32:35 PM
1679 Views
If it became a habit it would be annoying, yeah, but is there reason to think it would?
- 10/05/2011 01:33:50 AM
1708 Views
Human nature
- 10/05/2011 11:21:05 AM
1773 Views
Human nature is to learn from mistakes, and that's not significantly less likely under either system
- 11/05/2011 08:58:06 AM
1733 Views
If RAFO wants to attract new members....
- 09/05/2011 10:55:36 PM
1778 Views
You can guarantee a large amount of people will leave if that vile phpBB type board is introduced
- 09/05/2011 11:01:43 PM
1779 Views
I see it the opposite way
- 10/05/2011 12:04:42 AM
1858 Views
It shouldn't be an either/or, a choice between retaining wotmaniacs or welcoming new members.
- 10/05/2011 02:00:04 AM
1616 Views
While I agree with everyone who hates BB boards...
- 16/05/2011 06:26:04 AM
1860 Views
I like the slider from nested to pages, yeah, thanks.
- 16/05/2011 06:54:02 AM
1747 Views
Oh, my
- 16/05/2011 07:10:17 AM
1849 Views
They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
- 16/05/2011 07:49:04 AM
1743 Views
- 16/05/2011 07:49:04 AM
1743 Views
Re: They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
- 16/05/2011 07:58:55 AM
1667 Views
- 16/05/2011 07:58:55 AM
1667 Views
Re: They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
- 16/05/2011 09:22:44 PM
1797 Views
- 16/05/2011 09:22:44 PM
1797 Views
Re: They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
- 18/05/2011 09:21:13 AM
1679 Views
- 18/05/2011 09:21:13 AM
1679 Views
I'd probably like it better if I weren't such an awful hitter.
- 18/05/2011 11:20:06 PM
1687 Views
I adore our set up.
- 09/05/2011 11:05:34 PM
1731 Views
Explanation, please.
- 10/05/2011 05:50:20 PM
1733 Views
I love that there are many examples of why this board style is a good thing in this thread.
- 10/05/2011 10:59:03 PM
1683 Views
- 10/05/2011 10:59:03 PM
1683 Views
There are also many counterexamples; depends on your perspective.
- 11/05/2011 09:08:19 AM
1636 Views
it's a bug, not a feature
- 11/05/2011 06:45:29 PM
1762 Views
I may be misinterpreting, and maybe this is the catch 22 (you don't read my posts.
)
- 11/05/2011 08:18:32 PM
1611 Views
)
- 11/05/2011 08:18:32 PM
1611 Views
I believe the way of counting active visitors has changed, though.
- 11/05/2011 08:25:27 PM
1622 Views
He did say something like that, yes; wotmania counted people active for AGES after the logout.
- 11/05/2011 10:01:56 PM
1580 Views
No, it's very much a feature, and that's coming from someone who shares your preference and reasons.
- 11/05/2011 09:44:51 PM
1783 Views
It's so much a feature to me, that I'd leave if it went to BB. Also, tangents.
- 12/05/2011 05:40:45 PM
1798 Views
I agree, I hate this old MBstyle. Its time to leave the dark ages. *NM*
- 13/05/2011 03:01:50 PM
942 Views
Your brain is just addled by hormones.
- 13/05/2011 03:14:27 PM
1683 Views
Hva addled hjernen min?
- 13/05/2011 04:36:14 PM
1666 Views
- 13/05/2011 04:36:14 PM
1666 Views
Acknowledgement of me as your ruler *NM*
- 09/05/2011 07:12:31 PM
913 Views
"JESUS is our only ruler!"
- 10/05/2011 03:00:01 AM
1527 Views
- 10/05/2011 03:00:01 AM
1527 Views
IRV is terrible, and is the worst option other than FPTP
- 10/05/2011 06:07:27 PM
1608 Views
But Borda isn't Condorcet complete either.
- 11/05/2011 08:45:05 AM
1750 Views
Hm. Coulda sworn it was. My mistake.
- 11/05/2011 11:43:43 PM
1704 Views
NP, happens.
- 12/05/2011 01:09:18 AM
1696 Views
Smiley Reduction/Alteration?
- 09/05/2011 07:30:25 PM
1469 Views
Also
with quotes and close brackets. <---- This is WEIRD.
- 09/05/2011 07:34:13 PM
1635 Views
with quotes and close brackets. <---- This is WEIRD.
- 09/05/2011 07:34:13 PM
1635 Views
That is quite possibly my biggest annoyance with the whole site.
- 09/05/2011 07:40:48 PM
1617 Views
- 09/05/2011 07:40:48 PM
1617 Views
Nothing really big, apart from what others have said, and less that's new.
- 09/05/2011 07:54:03 PM
1759 Views
How about a music MB?
- 09/05/2011 08:00:33 PM
1703 Views
I think it wouldn't be used much.
- 09/05/2011 08:08:52 PM
1662 Views
Yeah a post on the Com MB every other week works just fine. *NM*
- 09/05/2011 08:16:49 PM
962 Views
Or turn the TV & Movie board into a pop culture board we'd just need to get rid of the rubbish admin
- 09/05/2011 09:13:41 PM
1749 Views
Stop being a brat!
- 09/05/2011 09:57:35 PM
1779 Views
- 09/05/2011 09:57:35 PM
1779 Views
But it is Jens!
- 09/05/2011 10:16:23 PM
1715 Views
- 09/05/2011 10:16:23 PM
1715 Views
Re: I think it wouldn't be used much.
- 09/05/2011 08:36:05 PM
1742 Views
collapsing of extended thread nests
- 09/05/2011 11:09:23 PM
1648 Views
pfft. get a wider screen. problem solved. *NM*
- 10/05/2011 04:06:51 PM
942 Views
Nah, it would also be nice to not have to go past all of that to get to part of a post you actually
- 15/05/2011 04:37:48 PM
1617 Views
Quick question, how many users are registered here? *NM*
- 10/05/2011 01:38:37 AM
1724 Views
I think the search page User List gives a good estimate (~725 total, counts/MB inside).
- 10/05/2011 02:44:50 AM
1779 Views
It doesn't
- 13/05/2011 10:29:32 AM
1770 Views
That surprises me, but I'm glad to have a (much) more accurate number, thanks.
- 13/05/2011 04:16:14 PM
1719 Views
Now that I'm thinking of Quick Polls: Maybe require voters to login during the feedback phase?
- 10/05/2011 03:05:51 AM
1764 Views
Anyone else notice that everyone replying participates on the book, tv + movies and comm boards
- 10/05/2011 02:18:08 PM
1707 Views
It doesn't help that we make them feel like a blemish on the RAFO scene.
- 10/05/2011 04:45:33 PM
1694 Views
Yeah, I don't get why the WOTlers aren't interested in saying something anywhere else
- 11/05/2011 09:54:50 AM
1643 Views
I think it's as simple as a lot of them just being WoT fans (which is not a crime.
)
- 11/05/2011 06:20:08 PM
1742 Views
)
- 11/05/2011 06:20:08 PM
1742 Views
I can agree to that. Provided of course, being a dan brown fan is still punishable by a severe...
- 11/05/2011 06:30:08 PM
1488 Views
You put me in a difficult position, caught between two important principles.
- 11/05/2011 08:22:33 PM
1774 Views
Hey, reply to the right post
- 11/05/2011 08:58:30 PM
1711 Views
- 11/05/2011 08:58:30 PM
1711 Views
I did, I just merged another one; I usually do, but can't with nesting.
- 11/05/2011 11:01:16 PM
1842 Views
You put me in a difficult position, caught between two important principles.
- 11/05/2011 08:52:04 PM
1610 Views
I've seen most people who've replied post on the WoTMB at least occasionally.
- 11/05/2011 11:26:44 PM
1691 Views
You are clearly wrong.
- 12/05/2011 04:58:34 PM
1507 Views
Its prime ended before the split? Bah, you old geezers always hassle us kids for livin' our life!
- 12/05/2011 07:32:02 PM
1700 Views
- 12/05/2011 07:32:02 PM
1700 Views
Report post, moderation powers to all boards, spoiler tags, NM bug, bug submitter's name displayed.
- 10/05/2011 05:59:58 PM
1479 Views
Re: your suggestions
- 10/05/2011 11:03:00 PM
1556 Views
Re: your suggestions
- 11/05/2011 08:24:38 AM
1527 Views
It's just that...
- 11/05/2011 06:04:46 PM
1643 Views
hahaha that's understandable. Well, leave me off the upgraded powers list, then.
- 11/05/2011 07:46:01 PM
1718 Views
- 11/05/2011 07:46:01 PM
1718 Views
Whoa. You can change quote styles? News to me. *NM*
- 11/05/2011 10:02:10 PM
899 Views
It's all there, in the help section at the top of the board.
- 12/05/2011 04:50:44 PM
1610 Views
Shush, you. *NM*
- 13/05/2011 08:56:05 AM
919 Views
Regarding the forum style
- 10/05/2011 11:17:50 PM
2164 Views
I support any improvement that won't impair functionality for others.
- 11/05/2011 05:26:02 PM
1658 Views
Just an observation/question about post-clicking
- 11/05/2011 05:42:30 PM
1714 Views
It's a real pain in the ass when the site's running slow.
- 11/05/2011 07:14:20 PM
1579 Views
Or your internet is; I've spent about 4 hours now reading and responding to less than a dozen posts.
- 11/05/2011 07:31:17 PM
1683 Views
It's more than laziness, yes.
- 11/05/2011 07:53:52 PM
1675 Views
Active Users: 51
- 11/05/2011 01:19:25 AM
1668 Views
Also
- 11/05/2011 04:36:17 AM
1703 Views
Who asked to be added to the Skype thing and was completely ignored?
- 12/05/2011 06:32:00 AM
1727 Views
I wonder if there is a way to make the Search function work...
- 11/05/2011 09:56:54 AM
1571 Views
There is an easy fix for that.
- 11/05/2011 06:09:10 PM
1703 Views
Links in posts - can they not take us to a new page but to a new tab/window, please?
- 12/05/2011 05:49:23 PM
1753 Views
It's not, but a simple right-click and select "Open in new tab" does the job in FF, at least.
- 12/05/2011 10:40:27 PM
1700 Views
Clicking links with your scroll wheel opens them in a new tab. *NM*
- 12/05/2011 11:32:29 PM
950 Views
some kind of "reply all" feature?
- 13/05/2011 06:35:15 AM
1691 Views
Not sure about implementation, but I like this; I wouldn't want pages as much with this.
- 13/05/2011 04:21:27 PM
1723 Views
Two things: facebook and searching within a post
- 13/05/2011 03:07:37 PM
1662 Views
I can add a comment for Facebook liking.
- 13/05/2011 06:48:16 PM
1915 Views
Maybe it's another IE vs. Firefox thing.
- 13/05/2011 08:52:53 PM
1802 Views
I use chrome
- 13/05/2011 09:47:06 PM
1613 Views
Works now, looks like; thanks to Bekah (or apologies to Ben if I missed it earlier).
- 21/05/2011 10:29:26 PM
1706 Views
Make me an Admin!
- 13/05/2011 04:17:59 PM
1718 Views
Of what, exactly? You have no discernible skills beside account corruption.
*NM*
- 13/05/2011 06:27:51 PM
982 Views
*NM*
- 13/05/2011 06:27:51 PM
982 Views
I demand silence from the peanut gallery! *NM*
- 15/05/2011 02:25:52 AM
883 Views
Since I don't think anyone else has mentioned it here - HTML
- 15/05/2011 09:00:39 PM
1790 Views
The email alerts for NBs option is coming (I think).
- 15/05/2011 11:22:58 PM
1764 Views
I hope so. I hate going onto the forum and replying "check noteboard" so they get an alert
*NM*
- 25/06/2011 04:39:43 PM
982 Views
*NM*
- 25/06/2011 04:39:43 PM
982 Views
WYSIWYG! *NM*
- 27/05/2011 02:25:49 PM
963 Views
is inherently evil. *NM*
- 27/05/2011 02:40:51 PM
839 Views
...and yet inherently accessible to the non-geek masses
- 30/05/2011 02:34:58 AM
1674 Views
As I said...
- 30/05/2011 08:55:32 AM
1637 Views
We could always just put a banner on the home page that says, "no non-geeks need apply".
- 26/06/2011 12:00:31 AM
1626 Views
A redesigned home page!
- 22/05/2011 04:26:27 AM
1665 Views
Unhh... Privacy statement?
- 19/07/2011 06:14:49 PM
1569 Views
"Rules" would be a better place, IMHO; we're told at least one of those links should soon work.
- 22/07/2011 04:08:54 PM
1587 Views
Thanks for the response / comment, Josh
- 23/07/2011 08:59:02 AM
1543 Views
- 23/07/2011 08:59:02 AM
1543 Views
I assume it just means people are too busy working on the site to answer immediately.
- 23/07/2011 02:06:48 PM
1577 Views
Admins should be able to move Posts into an already existing thread
- 20/07/2011 02:52:05 PM
1617 Views
since most of us are science fiction fans as well as fantasy fans...
- 22/07/2011 07:56:29 PM
1889 Views
Feel free to use the Science category on this (the Community) MB *NM*
- 23/07/2011 04:35:06 AM
893 Views

