I require the same standard of evidence to be confident in anything.
Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 30/06/2011 07:43:51 PM
This is not new info to me. Trying to apply currently available methods to explain things they aren't equipped to handle is a very common trait of a lot of rationalists through out history, most scientists I know who are religious do not necessarily believe there is anything reason can not apply to, just that reductionism and premature efforts to claim something has been figured out are a bad habit amongst a lot of thinkers. As of this time, we really do not know that everything can be explained, and when one claims it can be, one is taking it on faith. Generally, when we encounter any phenomena that exhibits Emergence we take on faith that it can be explained as a complex system arising from simple rules, and with good cause. However to this date we've actually managed to explain virtually none of these systems, even when we've got the system mastered, like classical mechanics. We often can't explain completely how it arises.You say 'compartmentalization' as a sneer at scientists who you believe are trying to pretend some things can not be studied, those of us who do this by and large do not hold such a view, we believe some things may not be able to be studied, that there may be limits to we've not yet encountered, but mostly we believe you should not jump the gun, because we have a long history of people generating pseudo-science by claiming to have figured things out and using good hard logic to convince most everyone else that it must be true and trying to say otherwise is heresy. Many of us have found that the general desire of people to be able to state something absolutely, to say 'case closed', often prematurely buries doubts and opposition. Right now even systems we have very good reason to assume are ruthlessly mechanistic, like the human brain or the weather, still elude anything approaching being rigorously understood, what we know of their rules comes almost strictly from observation where we can at best observe what major factors are altered, not alter them ourselves, so we can't say for certain if they really are strictly based off simple principles.
Reductionism is correct based on the available evidence; no one has demonstrated an object or class of objects not built up from bosons and fermions. I do not accept your assertion that we can explain "virtually none" of systems that have emergent properties. The weather is a chaotic system, which foils exact predictions but not thorough understanding of the mechanisms involved. We actually understand quite a bit about the brain, including how to manipulate parts of it ourselves; this understanding is literally increasing every day due to the more advanced tools now available to neuroscience.
Also, whether or not my previous statement was not "new info" to you, it's clearly something you need to think about more.
I'm pretty confident, have a lot of faith one might say, that if you measured every single packet of energy entering and leaving a living human brain you'd come up with a sum of zero and that the entropy of the system will, once you account for the outgoing and incoming, have increased, but nobody has ever checked to my knowledge, and I doubt anyone who has has done so rigourously. So I don't view saying that these things are not yet understood and may not be understandable as some appeal to the mystic, a desire for them not to be understood, I see it as a simple statement of truth, and a healthy display of humility.
Also faith doesn't have to be some glaze-eyed mystical nonsense, people have faith their lights will work when they hit the switch long before they understand why it works, as few ever do besides 'switch throw, power into machine'. They know it works, they know their foot doesn't sink into the ground even though gravity is dragging on them, they know that coffee helps wake them up in the morning... can't say I've ever studied the actual science involved in Caffeine or any other Xanthine before, but "they do the trick". Long before you knew why the table in your childhood kitchen didn't sink into the ground you knew that it didn't, and you accepted it as solid truth.
Also faith doesn't have to be some glaze-eyed mystical nonsense, people have faith their lights will work when they hit the switch long before they understand why it works, as few ever do besides 'switch throw, power into machine'. They know it works, they know their foot doesn't sink into the ground even though gravity is dragging on them, they know that coffee helps wake them up in the morning... can't say I've ever studied the actual science involved in Caffeine or any other Xanthine before, but "they do the trick". Long before you knew why the table in your childhood kitchen didn't sink into the ground you knew that it didn't, and you accepted it as solid truth.
Let's be clear: you are using the term "faith" here to mean simply belief. Having beliefs is fine, if they're supported by evidence, like the ones you described. Helene used the term "faith" to mean "religious faith," which in all known cases amounts to belief without supporting evidence or despite evidence to the contrary. "Science can't yet entirely explain every single known phenomenon" does not justify belief in specific, unsupported religious claims. "God of the gaps" arguments are not worthwhile because the argument only becomes weaker over time, and God is not a good explanation for things. It's not falsifiable as it's usually stated today, and it doesn't make solid predictions or help us anticipate experiences.
We both accept the concept of Dark Matter even though we've yet to find a piece of it and know very little concrete about it, because 2) We've gotten very good at measuring mass and we're missing a bunch, and 3) We've exhausted most of the more mundane options. But we're missing 1) We have faith in peer-review, because I've never taken a single astronomical measurement beyond some sunspots and you, if the age listed in your profile is correct, probably haven't either. We put a lot of faith in the scientists who have, with good cause, but that doesn't change what it is, and it doesn't mean their isn't a risk of pitfalls in doing that. Consider pink unicorns, most people would laugh if you said you believed in them, kinda silly in some ways consider how mundane a horse with a horn and a pink coat is compared to a lot of the more bizarre life we've turned up, but the very notion is absurd, of course with billions of worlds (presumably) in each of the billions of galaxies, the notion of a creature existing that would meet any reasonable standard of 'horse' and have a pink coat and a horn, isn't just possible but nearly ironclad. We can more or less rule out any being on Earth, and even be pretty confident none ever existed, but we can't really be sure. There's a lot locked up in that, the way people would laugh at that or something like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster, even though those last two have probably been 'seen' by more people than have seen a Coelacanth.
Again, all of this describes beliefs based on evidence. None of these things are contradictory or questionable practices, if you understand how to weight evidence and judge probabilities properly, and none of them support religion.
See, you exhibit this bad habit. Off the top of my head I would say from anecdotal evidence that the most obvious reason for this larger number of atheists amongst scientists is likely no more than that people who are atheists are more likely to become scientists. Most freshmen going into science I've met who expressed a view were atheists. Regardless, for something like this data to be usable for what you are claiming, you really should have a poll of novice scientists compared to fully-educated ones, and see if there is a difference. Ideally by asking those same people ten or twenty years down the road... drew a bad conclusions IMO. The presumed goal of quoting that was to show that a knowledge of science makes people more likely to be atheists, that the more science someone knows, the more likely, on average, they are to be an atheist, but the data quoted would not relate. Maybe want it to be true and weren't thinking too objectively?
If you had read the article, you would have seen that the study was conducted on "elite" scientists, i.e. leaders in their fields. Your objection does not apply to the data, so it seems that you were the one rationalizing.
It was used that way, Helene's follow up, as well as some prior posts we've exchanged on the board, make me feel pretty confident about that.
Religious faith is not rational. That is a fact. Helene used the term to mean exactly that.
And no, no belief deserves protection from criticism, not special protection anyway, but there are matters of custom and courtesy for polite conversation between people, I try to refrain from having anything but civil conversation on this site, not necessarily friendly, but civil, and whatever you might wish to be the case, society general frowns on referring to someone as irrational for believing in God. I know that I will have a hard time remaining civil to anyone who insists on saying things I view as demeaning, particularly when they weren't relevant to the thread and I'd already expressed a desire not to discuss them, I was informing her of that.
Yes, society frowns on criticism of religion. That is not a good thing for society, because it gives irrationality a free pass.
Also, while we're on the topic of how/why religion was brought up: objections to gay marriage are implicitly or explicitly based on religion in nearly every case.
I assume that is meant as a 'friendly request' as opposed to a cheap shot, and I'll try to add in more breaks. I do make use of a lot run on sentences, bad habit, though so you know I generally type that way during informal comments, and am not planning to put special effort into changing it, if you feel that is to much of a hurdle to reading my comments then it may be in your best interest not read or reply to them.
Yes, that was meant as a friendly request.
New York Senate approves same-sex marriage
- 25/06/2011 03:47:43 AM
1095 Views
I'm actually not opposed to this.
- 25/06/2011 03:48:32 PM
490 Views
I'm not sure why there was even any need for such explicit protection.
- 25/06/2011 04:04:47 PM
461 Views
so in your only Catholics are really married?
- 26/06/2011 12:04:07 AM
461 Views
Church Doctrine.
- 26/06/2011 12:57:39 AM
591 Views
That's patently wrong in that Orthodox weddings are explicitly recognized by the Church.
- 26/06/2011 02:42:00 PM
479 Views
Yeah okay...
- 26/06/2011 05:16:05 PM
518 Views
They are outside of the authority of Rome, and have, on occasion, excommunicated Popes.
- 27/06/2011 05:03:31 PM
487 Views
Seems fine to me
- 25/06/2011 05:44:30 PM
450 Views
Voting on civil rights constitutes tyranny of the majority, not legitimate democracy.
- 25/06/2011 09:37:28 PM
585 Views
Re: Voting on civil rights constitutes tyranny of the majority, not legitimate democracy.
- 26/06/2011 03:11:06 AM
536 Views
Good luck telling that to the deeply religious right.
- 26/06/2011 03:20:04 AM
434 Views
I am a deeply religious member of the right, and I tell them that all the time *NM*
- 26/06/2011 03:30:14 AM
198 Views
After a number of years of gay marriage
- 26/06/2011 06:57:07 AM
433 Views
That's more or less true of virtually everything, not a great example
- 26/06/2011 07:09:03 AM
461 Views
People shouldn't turn their own religion and/or opinion into law
- 28/06/2011 07:33:48 PM
456 Views
I don't recall mentioning religion beyond confirming that I was religious
- 28/06/2011 08:22:51 PM
484 Views
I admit I wasn't replying to you directly
- 29/06/2011 07:20:10 AM
447 Views
I think you should give this subject a bit more thought
- 29/06/2011 02:16:04 PM
483 Views
Believing things without strong supporting evidence is not rational.
- 30/06/2011 12:11:33 AM
548 Views
Requiring different degrees of proof for things isn't particularly rational
- 30/06/2011 01:14:44 PM
620 Views
I require the same standard of evidence to be confident in anything.
- 30/06/2011 07:43:51 PM
996 Views
Re: I require the same standard of evidence to be confident in anything.
- 30/06/2011 08:59:00 PM
633 Views
Re: I require the same standard of evidence to be confident in anything.
- 30/06/2011 09:47:30 PM
895 Views
No, I used the word irrational to mean that it's not rational.
- 30/06/2011 09:12:19 PM
471 Views
Re: Voting on civil rights constitutes tyranny of the majority, not legitimate democracy.
- 26/06/2011 10:38:56 PM
623 Views
I think you should give your fellow citizens a bit more trust and respect
- 27/06/2011 05:41:52 PM
415 Views
My expectations are guided by psychology and history.
- 28/06/2011 07:08:06 PM
523 Views
That's good to know, most of us do that, though we usually just call it common sense and experience
- 28/06/2011 08:55:23 PM
570 Views
No, most people don't do that. Reasoning from cognitive biases and anecdotes is much more common.
- 30/06/2011 12:18:40 AM
480 Views
Empire State Building was lit up in rainbow colors, looked cool *NM*
- 25/06/2011 08:21:03 PM
210 Views
I approved that years ago. They are way behind. Granted, I have no authority over anyone...
- 26/06/2011 12:22:33 AM
363 Views
The real issue is going to be when the Supreme Court rules on the full faith and credit clause.
- 26/06/2011 02:43:23 PM
466 Views