Active Users:707 Time:05/08/2025 09:19:38 PM
You obviously misread my comments or ignored them. Tom Send a noteboard - 19/12/2011 03:39:59 PM
My criticism is far stronger than "you can't prove a negative". My own personal experience has provided me with evidence (admittedly not conclusive) that there is some form of higher power at work, regardless of how we attempt to quantify it. The nature of the evidence (dreams, strong intuition, statements expressed without even thinking) is not the sort of thing that can be scientifically measured. However, the simple LACK of a means of repeating something, or even conducting an experiment in the first place, does not mean that the evidence has no value. Logical reasoning is the strongest and most consistent way to form opinions, but anecdotal evidence also tends to be accurate quite often, even if it has a higher probability for error and/or misstatement.

It's as difficult to prove as to prove to a blind man that the Sun exists. Sure, he's heard a lot about it, and you can try to take him outside on a sunny day, but the same feeling can be reproduced by putting him under a heat lamp. He has no reason to believe in the existence of something he himself has no way of measuring. Does this mean that a blind man has reason to say that there is no Sun?

The absurdities that you listed, like the Loch Ness Monster, are obviously different. In the case of the Loch Ness Monster, we know that humans can create fake experiences for others, people can lie and say they saw it, and mistake a simple natural occurrence for the Monster. While one can apply all of these possibilities to some forms of interaction with what we believe to be the Divine, it cannot explain most of the unusual experiences that I have had. Dreams that are told to third party witnesses who can corroborate the telling have then come true. I have witnesses, because otherwise I might be inclined to believe that my recollections of having dreamt something are hallucinations or that the relevance is misstated.

Ask my friend, to whom I said the following in July 2001: "You asked me to tell you if I had any dreams that could affect you and so I just wanted you to know that, on the basis of my dream last night, you should move out of downtown Manhattan because I dreamt there was a major terrorist attack downtown that devastated the whole neighborhood." The very reason he had asked me to warn him about my dreams is because of a whole series of dreams I had told him about prior to this.

I'm far from Pascal's wager and into the territory where my primary focus is to try to understand the how, the why and the implications.


I'm sure you're familiar with its criticisms, so rather than repeat them here I'll just post a link. But how do you answer them?

Your other criticism of atheism essentially boils down to "you can't prove a negative". True, but no sensible person believes a positive without sufficient credible evidence. Until then, you assume the negative and lead your life as if the purported entity doesn't exist. This applies equally to extraterrestrial life, mythical creatures such as Nessie, and deities. Your supposed atheist who believes there's no possibility that a god could exist (as opposed to merely not believing that one exists) is a strawman: most atheists don't think that way, and those who do are wrong to do so.

The real point of difference is whether one accepts the evidence, such as it is, that a god exists. Just because I don't, doesn't mean I wouldn't if better evidence turned up.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
Reply to message
Kim Jong-il is dead. Would you become a fervent believer? - 19/12/2011 03:37:28 AM 1631 Views
If I was a Christian, I'd pray that he would burn forever in hell. - 19/12/2011 03:47:52 AM 1046 Views
See, I can't be an atheist. - 19/12/2011 03:53:55 AM 1007 Views
I agree about atheism - 19/12/2011 04:19:02 AM 864 Views
It's an approximation. - 19/12/2011 05:40:05 PM 892 Views
no, I'm not saying that the sheer number of people alone is sufficient - 19/12/2011 10:13:09 PM 785 Views
Re: See, I can't be an atheist. - 19/12/2011 04:25:06 AM 863 Views
No, Pascal's Wager is stupid. - 19/12/2011 03:09:42 PM 875 Views
You obviously misread my comments or ignored them. - 19/12/2011 03:39:59 PM 889 Views
You're answering a different point to the one I was addressing. - 19/12/2011 04:01:54 PM 810 Views
For atheism to be a tenable position, one must assume that millions lie about their experiences. - 20/12/2011 04:11:53 AM 887 Views
Look, doesn't this go against your most sacred principle? - 20/12/2011 06:43:27 AM 857 Views
I'm pretty sure he's not saying it's undeniable proof. - 20/12/2011 09:19:44 AM 811 Views
No, it doesn't. - 20/12/2011 08:30:55 PM 768 Views
Re: No, it doesn't. - 20/12/2011 09:21:22 PM 810 Views
This militant atheism is somewhat amusing. - 20/12/2011 09:48:57 PM 833 Views
... somewhat irrational at times too - 21/12/2011 01:22:54 AM 751 Views
Huh? - 21/12/2011 10:47:06 AM 790 Views
That's somewhat unrelated to the intended point of the post - 21/12/2011 12:41:49 PM 803 Views
My "Huh?" was at your claim that any reasonable definition Kim Jong-il was a millitant athiest - 21/12/2011 12:58:44 PM 787 Views
You're objecting to me calling the Military Dictator militant? - 21/12/2011 03:13:35 PM 833 Views
Is that the long way of saying you can't back up what you said? - 21/12/2011 04:06:06 PM 765 Views
Okay - 21/12/2011 05:03:07 PM 852 Views
Your position isn't rational nor logical - 20/12/2011 12:45:03 PM 833 Views
How about a faith atheist? - 19/12/2011 04:28:59 PM 939 Views
Nevermind. It appears you answered that in your reply to Tim. *NM* - 19/12/2011 04:32:19 PM 449 Views
Re: See, I can't be an atheist. - 19/12/2011 04:57:23 PM 903 Views
Sounds like you must be a modern-day prophet - 19/12/2011 05:24:24 PM 752 Views
Well, it's *possible* that he is. - 19/12/2011 05:49:34 PM 831 Views
Hah, fair enough - 19/12/2011 06:47:07 PM 790 Views
Idiocy. Confirmation bias doesn't explain away external phenomena. - 20/12/2011 04:19:10 AM 870 Views
Well. - 21/12/2011 01:49:36 PM 818 Views
I didn't forget about it. I was getting ready to give up on it. - 21/12/2011 02:27:18 PM 743 Views
That doesn't really make sense. - 21/12/2011 03:04:23 PM 677 Views
No, it does make perfect sense. - 21/12/2011 06:17:02 PM 817 Views
Also, learn to use the subjunctive. It's "if I WERE a Christian..." - 19/12/2011 03:54:20 AM 861 Views
The sad thing about that comment... - 19/12/2011 04:52:57 AM 983 Views
I really am gonna miss Hitchens...a lot *NM* *NM* - 19/12/2011 04:06:50 AM 395 Views
I will miss him, too...a lot. *NM* - 19/12/2011 04:17:05 AM 381 Views
so, hypothetically...if I was to send you a list of people... - 19/12/2011 04:25:47 AM 821 Views
Let's not try that. - 20/12/2011 04:21:35 AM 778 Views
I'm so ronery - 19/12/2011 06:36:38 AM 868 Views
I thought you were asking if I believed in KJ-I, the Eternal Leader - 19/12/2011 06:55:08 AM 768 Views
You know what's really weird? - 19/12/2011 11:32:23 AM 830 Views
It has been there for 6 hours at this stage. - 19/12/2011 12:34:57 PM 906 Views
don't forget Mugabe (sp) - 19/12/2011 01:06:24 PM 744 Views
Zimbabwe basically is dust by now. *NM* - 19/12/2011 02:52:51 PM 375 Views
They took it down, apparently. *NM* - 20/12/2011 04:40:24 AM 355 Views
Turns out Kim Jong really was il? - 19/12/2011 12:10:15 PM 788 Views
all praise Madokami! *NM* - 19/12/2011 01:03:26 PM 439 Views
He's not dead-dead. Neither is his father. Just ask the North Koreans. - 19/12/2011 04:23:48 PM 812 Views
Re: He's not dead-dead. Neither is his father. Just ask the North Koreans. - 19/12/2011 09:15:09 PM 745 Views
That happened to me too. - 19/12/2011 09:45:48 PM 880 Views
Re: That happened to me too. - 19/12/2011 09:48:36 PM 755 Views
Re: Legend - 20/12/2011 04:54:40 PM 752 Views
I wonder if they're going to embalm him? - 20/12/2011 04:39:33 AM 686 Views
The problem with predictions that come true - 19/12/2011 05:28:24 PM 853 Views
I don't make a lot of predictions. *NM* - 19/12/2011 08:18:53 PM 494 Views
Just ones about old, sick guys dying? *NM* - 19/12/2011 09:51:12 PM 345 Views
No, sadly. - 20/12/2011 04:31:44 AM 689 Views
I can attest to the fact that this conversation took place on Facebook Saturday. - 19/12/2011 09:19:06 PM 764 Views
Yeah, I thought that reply seemed in the wrong place - 19/12/2011 09:28:17 PM 768 Views
Re: Yeah, I thought that reply seemed in the wrong place - 19/12/2011 09:31:00 PM 764 Views
Yes, TMJ, you also contributed in this case. *NM* - 20/12/2011 04:38:42 AM 347 Views
I am not a dog to be petted! - 21/12/2011 02:42:55 AM 756 Views
HAHAHAHA!!!! *NM* - 21/12/2011 05:31:06 AM 439 Views
Coincidentally, I found this site today - 19/12/2011 10:57:36 PM 799 Views
Oh, I liked that site. I found it a few years ago. *NM* - 20/12/2011 04:37:04 AM 348 Views
Jeez, I hope I never get on your bad side - 20/12/2011 12:06:54 AM 702 Views
Things did change for the better with Stalin's death. - 20/12/2011 02:51:12 AM 803 Views
Not for Stalin *NM* - 20/12/2011 09:49:39 PM 410 Views
eh, you can't have everything - 20/12/2011 11:08:36 PM 704 Views
Not to downplay your awesomely uncanny coincidence... - 20/12/2011 01:19:33 PM 777 Views

Reply to Message