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I suspect that that is where a lot of the issue with it lies. Chas Send a noteboard - 02/03/2012 01:33:43 AM
The baptism for the dead only aids an applicant, it is not an enrollment. Nobody is admitted unless they ask for admission. Nobody is admitted against their will. Mormons do not believe that a baptism for the dead makes someone a mormon in the hereafter.


I may be wrong but, as far as I know, in all other Christian denominations baptism is considered 'enrollment' and has been considered so for a very long time. It's a fairly loaded word. So, even if they've changed the definition for this particular situation,it's not hard to see how people might get worked up- especially if they're Holocaust survivors or lost family in the Holocaust. Posthumously baptizing them is akin to robbing them of their identity, and it's made worse when their very identity is what resulted in their murder. Bit of a harsh pill to swallow when you're murdered because you're Jewish and then someone comes along afterwards and says 'Hey, guess what? You're not Jewish anymore'.


Of course all of the above is premised on the definition of baptism as understood by, I'd argue, most of the Western world and beyond. Language is tricky.

Mormons believe that when someone dies and realizes they are not entirely dead they may rethink some of their prior convictions, especially when the gospel is then preached to them in an entirely different set of circumstances than in mortality or for the first time (as in most cases). Mormons believe that in such circumstances some that did not previously want to be admitted will seek admission. If such a person actively seeks admission, then the baptism for the dead can benefit them. If they don't want to be admitted, the baptism for the dead is entirely meaningless and they will likely not even know it happened.

You are trying to add in an element of coercion where there is none. The mormons do not believe they can make you go to the play, they can only leave a ticket should you decide to come. The mormons do not believe they can make you do anything or make you into anything you do not want to become. A mormon baptism for the dead is just as coercive (and intrusive) as if someone had written your name on a piece of paper without your permission and kept it in her home.

And of course all of this has meaning only if the mormons are actually right. If mormonism is entirely fake, then the gospel will not be preached to the dead and the work for the dead done by mormons is totally meaningless. If it is meaningless then why be offended by efforts made in secret that you will never know about unless you try to find out? Would you be angry if you found out that a friend of a different faith said prayers on behalf of your soul.

Unwillingly indoctrinating someone into any religion, live or dead, is not acceptable. Ever. And baptism is an opening indoctrination. It's a rite of admission. Well what if you don't want to be admitted? You never did? Too bad! You shouldn't have been died all ignorant like because we just admitted your ass. But you know, you can choose to--wait you're dead. OOPS.

And just having a different opinion is not condescending. Making the presumption that you are right and KNOW BETTER for SOMEONE ELSE is condescending. It's not condescending to go "Hey, I disagree with you and I think I'm right." It's condescending to tell people your religion is better for them. You may not even know them at all!!

it's also condescending to keep trying to discuss it with them when they have clearly shown that they are uninterested.

To use your analogy, it's not condescending to recommend going to a play. It's condescending to arrange someone to go to the play because you think it's good for them. And baptizing people after they're dead is like not telling them there's a play at all.

And if you're baptizing random ass people who never even knew about your religion, I think that's extremely disrespectful towards whatever beliefs they already had. Which, again, is not something you do out of "love". You do it out of presumption that you are right and that everyone needs to be right with you.

Honestly, the only reason I take solace in for this issue is that I believe that we don't live on (at least as our selves) past death. So, luckily, no one actually IS being forced to do anything and they don't have to know anyone's giving them a big old middle finger to their personal choices in life.
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Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? Dark Knight - 28/02/2012 07:10:57 PM 2138 Views
Or, you could baptize one of them, posthumously. nossy - 28/02/2012 07:32:48 PM 1463 Views
Ooo that is hilarious *NM* Dark Knight - 28/02/2012 08:22:19 PM 531 Views
I can't think of any reason for an atheist to be annoyed by that. Tim - 28/02/2012 11:08:44 PM 1188 Views
Well, for starters, it's really effing rude. nossy - 28/02/2012 11:31:36 PM 1263 Views
It is an act of love. Narg - 29/02/2012 12:34:03 AM 1255 Views
Everyone does it for that reason? (edits for clarity) nossy - 29/02/2012 10:27:02 AM 1137 Views
I have some disturbing news for you... Narg - 29/02/2012 06:42:41 PM 1182 Views
For anyone reading this: the guy above is wrong, and I am admitting that to you on his behalf, so nossy - 29/02/2012 07:15:38 PM 1221 Views
Maybe without realizing it, you have articulated.... Jeordam - 29/02/2012 07:24:13 PM 1026 Views
I actually find that conversation quite interesting. nossy - 29/02/2012 08:18:35 PM 1150 Views
Re: I actually find that conversation quite interesting. Jeordam - 29/02/2012 09:07:06 PM 1222 Views
I cannot possibly agree more with these two paragraphs of yours... LadyLorraine - 29/02/2012 09:28:09 PM 1208 Views
I'm surprised to see some of this. nossy - 01/03/2012 12:11:31 PM 1059 Views
I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part. Joel - 02/03/2012 09:05:29 AM 1605 Views
Re: I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part. Jeordam - 02/03/2012 06:26:06 PM 1388 Views
There are 3 critical distinctions: 1) Ability to sin, 2) Awareness of sin and 3) Appreciation of sin Joel - 05/03/2012 04:08:36 AM 1147 Views
You said it was really effing rude. Narg - 29/02/2012 08:18:40 PM 1230 Views
I meant that the act of choosing for someone else nossy - 29/02/2012 08:54:02 PM 1111 Views
Question snoopcester - 29/02/2012 07:58:32 PM 1202 Views
No, I don't blame them or think they are fools. Narg - 29/02/2012 08:41:13 PM 1209 Views
It is not an act of love to defy the beliefs of a loved one. LadyLorraine - 29/02/2012 02:32:45 PM 1293 Views
Rape? That is ridiculous. Narg - 29/02/2012 05:26:13 PM 1211 Views
It's a bit of hyperbole, but not too far from it, imo LadyLorraine - 29/02/2012 05:45:39 PM 1221 Views
You are trying your best to not understand. Narg - 29/02/2012 07:12:57 PM 1230 Views
I suspect that that is where a lot of the issue with it lies. Chas - 02/03/2012 01:33:43 AM 1293 Views
one thing nossy - 29/02/2012 06:25:45 PM 1234 Views
Precisely *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/02/2012 06:59:15 PM 575 Views
Bad example Praziquantel - 05/03/2012 05:06:21 AM 1300 Views
"Spiritual rape" might be going a bit far, but otherwise that sounds about right. Joel - 02/03/2012 08:06:48 AM 1284 Views
Why would they be angry about that? Hieshyn - 02/03/2012 01:23:56 AM 1424 Views
Denying people rights since it was written 3000 years ago? jh - 28/02/2012 07:44:02 PM 1137 Views
Isn't religion different than faith, though? Nate - 28/02/2012 07:44:07 PM 1243 Views
Yeah that's pretty much what I said Dark Knight - 28/02/2012 08:21:56 PM 1057 Views
Only if I get to be Pope. Nate - 28/02/2012 08:25:45 PM 1177 Views
I love me my vices! Thanks Pope Dark Knight - 28/02/2012 10:14:27 PM 1068 Views
Generally the same way you piss off anyone else Isaac - 28/02/2012 08:43:04 PM 1165 Views
Great post. Narg - 28/02/2012 09:18:38 PM 1155 Views
I find that the best way is to smile. Dannymac - 29/02/2012 06:23:50 AM 1170 Views
Some answers Narg - 28/02/2012 09:05:35 PM 1133 Views
that won't work on Buddists Yunalesca - 28/02/2012 09:21:48 PM 1199 Views
On the other hand ... Nate - 28/02/2012 09:28:27 PM 1046 Views
For some reason I always imagine Buddhists as the monk class on RPG games... *NM* Dark Knight - 28/02/2012 10:13:27 PM 587 Views
LOL same *NM* ironclad - 28/02/2012 10:31:38 PM 560 Views
That's always been my view of the issue. Half-assed non-religious types are just as obnoxious too. Cannoli - 28/02/2012 10:34:12 PM 1415 Views
Seems a got both a pat on the back and a scathing rebuke. I call that a good day Dark Knight - 28/02/2012 11:57:45 PM 1479 Views
Best way to anger an atheist, by declaring all atheists are the same. *NM* Roland00 - 28/02/2012 10:38:51 PM 713 Views
Telling anyone what they actually believe will work. *NM* Aeryn - 28/02/2012 10:51:56 PM 558 Views
This kind of works for many, doesn't it? Jeordam - 29/02/2012 06:22:33 PM 1050 Views
I'm an atheist, and I consider it to be my religion. *NM* Aeryn - 28/02/2012 10:51:00 PM 527 Views
Common error number 1: "Atheism isn't a lack of belief, but rather a belief that God doesn't exist." Tim - 28/02/2012 11:18:23 PM 1364 Views
I second that DomA - 29/02/2012 03:46:15 AM 1172 Views
Curiously, anger at statements of simple obvious facts is a hallmark of religious fundamentalism. Joel - 29/02/2012 10:27:29 AM 1290 Views
What you're doing there is defining "atheist" and "agnostic" in a way that suits you, but... Tim - 29/02/2012 11:50:27 AM 1070 Views
What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born. Joel - 05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM 1222 Views
So what do you call this position?: Tim - 05/03/2012 08:43:20 AM 1174 Views
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean. Joel - 05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM 1263 Views
See, there you go again, defining atheism in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous. Tim - 05/03/2012 11:21:17 AM 1043 Views
Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not? Joel - 05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM 1265 Views
What's happening nossy - 05/03/2012 02:24:41 PM 1281 Views
Conversationally, DKs use of "atheism" at the start of this convo is the only practical definition. Joel - 07/03/2012 03:10:18 AM 1588 Views
Oh really? The guy who was doing it to annoy people? nossy - 07/03/2012 09:53:38 PM 1174 Views
The guy who was doing it to annoy atheists based on the terms technical and popular meaning, yes. Joel - 11/03/2012 04:04:36 AM 1058 Views
Whatever. nossy - 12/03/2012 12:39:24 AM 1545 Views
*NM* nossy - 12/03/2012 01:14:39 AM 584 Views
I understand that as "I completely agree." Joel - 13/03/2012 12:11:18 AM 1344 Views
I saw it as.... TaskmasterJack - 13/03/2012 10:44:37 PM 1073 Views
My browser does not like your gif. Joel - 13/03/2012 11:32:06 PM 1336 Views
I have known very few people who "believe" their religion from rearing and actually understand it. Joel - 29/02/2012 12:08:01 PM 1406 Views
I have a few good quotes for this one. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/02/2012 03:29:22 PM 1191 Views
I snerfled. *NM* Avendesora - 29/02/2012 05:12:32 PM 562 Views
I thought that was "best way to make an atheist roll his/her eyes at you"? *NM* Craig - 29/02/2012 11:05:21 PM 750 Views
Re: That's it? *NM* RomaVenkat - 01/03/2012 06:33:48 AM 632 Views
Re: Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? Nefarious - 02/03/2012 01:47:03 AM 1110 Views
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