I'm pretty much going on the assumption here that in such cases, the sleeping person is expected to wake up nearly immediately - if for some reason the sleeping person is so fast asleep that they just keep sleeping, it does rather start to resemble sex with a blow-up doll.
That also goes for the Assange case - I'm operating on the assumption that the woman woke when he started doing that and, presumably, told him to knock it off.
The little Wikipedia research I've done claimed at one point that the victim later amended her statement to saying she had been "half asleep" rather than "asleep", which fits well with my interpretation above. Of course, it might be best not to blindly rely on that.
I don't think it's nonsense to be bothered about the notion of people being accused or even convicted of rape when they were understandably convinced, based on reasonable grounds, that it was consensual. Of course, "reasonable grounds" are impossible to define, but then that's why it's a grey area. Obviously in general it's about consent, not refusal, but in cases where there are "reasonable grounds" to lead one to conclude that it's consensual, it's important for the non-consenting partner to make that refusal clear. And having previously had consensual sex does change one's frame of reference, changes how explicit a consent you'd need to reasonably suppose that sex is welcome.
That also goes for the Assange case - I'm operating on the assumption that the woman woke when he started doing that and, presumably, told him to knock it off.
Now if it has been agreed in advance that it is okay then it isn't or if it is as a result of a misunderstanding - for example one sleepy person thinking the other sleeping person is in a similar state of wakefulness and responding then I think in a relationship it can be seen a mistake.
The little Wikipedia research I've done claimed at one point that the victim later amended her statement to saying she had been "half asleep" rather than "asleep", which fits well with my interpretation above. Of course, it might be best not to blindly rely on that.
I don't see it as a grey area at all - what he did was start having sex with someone who didn't even know what was happening, let alone have a chance to consent (and one of my major issues with Joel is his repeated stating that it hinges on refusal and not consent, which frankly I think any sane person would see as nonsense).
I don't think it's nonsense to be bothered about the notion of people being accused or even convicted of rape when they were understandably convinced, based on reasonable grounds, that it was consensual. Of course, "reasonable grounds" are impossible to define, but then that's why it's a grey area. Obviously in general it's about consent, not refusal, but in cases where there are "reasonable grounds" to lead one to conclude that it's consensual, it's important for the non-consenting partner to make that refusal clear. And having previously had consensual sex does change one's frame of reference, changes how explicit a consent you'd need to reasonably suppose that sex is welcome.
Cuddling up? fair enough. Sex acts on their sleeping body? Utterly wrong.
Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off
- 22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM
1132 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest.
- 22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM
716 Views
That is second on my list of things I remember about him, probably down to third now.
- 22/08/2012 11:21:17 PM
618 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate
- 23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM
668 Views
Bullshit
- 23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM
570 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway
- 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM
614 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic.
- 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM
887 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments
- 24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM
527 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way.
- 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM
598 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too
- 24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM
611 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led.
- 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM
690 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary
- 24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM
638 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either.
- 24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM
818 Views
I'm not even sure what that means
- 25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM
537 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads.
- 25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM
598 Views
Okay, we're done here
- 26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM
575 Views
Quotes are not my opinion.
- 26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM
537 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education.
- 26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM
643 Views
Further post-secondary education, you mean; probably so, though not for the reasons you stated.
- 26/08/2012 08:20:45 PM
584 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually?
- 27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM
663 Views
It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period
- 23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM
693 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments.
- 23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM
655 Views
Really? *NM*
- 23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM
358 Views
Yeah.
- 23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM
597 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response.
- 23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM
595 Views
Heh, I didn't think so.
- 23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM
633 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context.
- 23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM
734 Views
Yes, I saw that.
- 23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM
542 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
- 23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM
572 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
- 23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM
551 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries.
- 23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM
577 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air
- 23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM
631 Views
This
- 23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM
624 Views
Eh
- 23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM
573 Views
I read it the same way Jen did
- 23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM
552 Views
Why?
- 23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM
613 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it.
- 23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM
609 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely.
- 23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM
572 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule.
- 23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM
593 Views
Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM
570 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM
541 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM
539 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM
632 Views
couple things
- 24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM
537 Views
Re: couple things
- 24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM
567 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange.
- 24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM
555 Views
I can
- 23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM
506 Views
OK
- 23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM
560 Views
Bullshit.
- 23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM
515 Views
Re: Bullshit.
- 23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
708 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets
- 23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM
626 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit
- 23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM
563 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned
- 24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM
547 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well.
- 24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM
592 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate.
- 24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM
755 Views
Interesting.
- 24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM
537 Views
Yeah, that about covers it; personally, I am developing a grudging respect for Akin.
- 24/08/2012 06:30:43 AM
618 Views
no it isn't kinda true
- 24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM
516 Views
The MO GOP voters who nominated him for being "most conservative" think it is.
- 25/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
547 Views


