There is a difference between the law of averages and the law of large numbers.
heartbreak Send a noteboard - 05/10/2012 04:45:00 AM
"The law of averages is a lay term used to express a belief that outcomes of a random event will "even out" within a small sample."
"In probability theory, the law of large numbers (LLN) is a theorem that describes the result of performing the same experiment a large number of times."
Your analogy of the voltmeter readings to people being polled doesn't fit. With the voltmeter reading, there should be one answer, what the system is supposed to output at the point of measurement. Let's call it twelve volts. You're absolutely right that we will take a million measurements and by averaging them we will have a better idea of what the voltage is at the spot being measured and it will be closer to the expected value the more measurements we take. The problem with comparing this to people being polled is that there is not a right or expected answer. Obama is not the expected value and Romney the error or the other way around.
What the margin of error tells us is that if the same poll were run again with a different subset of the population then the results could vary by plus or minus the margin of error for each candidate. For example, if we run a poll, Candidate A gets 48 and Candidate B gets 52 and our margin of error is 4 it is very possible that if we conducted the poll again with a different subset of the population that our results could end up 50/50.
This is why when the difference between the two is within the margin of error, the result of one doing better than the other is insignificant.
As far as taking the results of multiple polls as indication that one candidate is doing better than the other despite the margin of error showing that the result is insignificant, this is where you and Joel are mistaking the law of averages for the law of large numbers.
In this case, the number of polls considered is a small data set.
"In probability theory, the law of large numbers (LLN) is a theorem that describes the result of performing the same experiment a large number of times."
Your analogy of the voltmeter readings to people being polled doesn't fit. With the voltmeter reading, there should be one answer, what the system is supposed to output at the point of measurement. Let's call it twelve volts. You're absolutely right that we will take a million measurements and by averaging them we will have a better idea of what the voltage is at the spot being measured and it will be closer to the expected value the more measurements we take. The problem with comparing this to people being polled is that there is not a right or expected answer. Obama is not the expected value and Romney the error or the other way around.
What the margin of error tells us is that if the same poll were run again with a different subset of the population then the results could vary by plus or minus the margin of error for each candidate. For example, if we run a poll, Candidate A gets 48 and Candidate B gets 52 and our margin of error is 4 it is very possible that if we conducted the poll again with a different subset of the population that our results could end up 50/50.
This is why when the difference between the two is within the margin of error, the result of one doing better than the other is insignificant.
As far as taking the results of multiple polls as indication that one candidate is doing better than the other despite the margin of error showing that the result is insignificant, this is where you and Joel are mistaking the law of averages for the law of large numbers.
In this case, the number of polls considered is a small data set.
Romney CRUSHES Obama in First Debate - Leads Swing States by 4%
- 04/10/2012 05:32:32 AM
1141 Views
So, is that from a "corrected", "non-skewed" poll?
- 04/10/2012 05:51:58 AM
672 Views
- 04/10/2012 05:51:58 AM
672 Views
Wow, you suck at Googling!
- 04/10/2012 01:14:22 PM
855 Views
- 04/10/2012 01:14:22 PM
855 Views
Which poll at your link shows anything but Obama leading every swing state but NC?
- 04/10/2012 05:41:31 PM
765 Views
No, you just apparently suck at math
- 04/10/2012 07:17:20 PM
619 Views
- 04/10/2012 07:17:20 PM
619 Views
I know you are sad, but your Messiah may still win.....you never know!
- 04/10/2012 07:23:16 PM
690 Views
your mental instability and misperception of reality are worrisome -- please seek professional help
- 04/10/2012 07:54:45 PM
772 Views
I'm more of a syndicalist, sorry
- 04/10/2012 08:43:48 PM
715 Views
Ooh, would you mind talking more about syndicalism?
- 04/10/2012 11:28:40 PM
622 Views
Sure, but I'm no doctrainaire on this
- 05/10/2012 01:13:19 AM
789 Views
Thank you!
Reading the wikipedia entry was making my eyes glaze over. But I can try again now. *NM*
- 05/10/2012 02:14:50 PM
532 Views
Reading the wikipedia entry was making my eyes glaze over. But I can try again now. *NM*
- 05/10/2012 02:14:50 PM
532 Views
It really should be mandatory for everyone to read factcheck.org after every debate. *NM*
- 04/10/2012 09:38:24 AM
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Seriously. The number of times I squinted and thought, "Wait, that doesn't sound quite right"
- 04/10/2012 02:01:12 PM
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Romney addressed that head-on
- 04/10/2012 02:13:44 PM
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Yeah, but it ain't, and it was Obamas job to make that unnecessary.
- 04/10/2012 03:26:50 PM
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Obama - Lost and Bewildered without Teleprompter.....funny stuff!
- 04/10/2012 01:10:40 PM
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Which part of Romneys socialism was your favorite?
- 04/10/2012 03:38:17 PM
775 Views
I keep thinking that was what killed Obama.
- 04/10/2012 04:45:02 PM
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I suspected that was a lot of it, yeah, but he should have been prepared for the Etch-a-Sketch.
- 04/10/2012 05:25:35 PM
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living in a bubble where everyone agreed on those things and is what killed him
- 04/10/2012 05:59:29 PM
721 Views
why do you silly lefites keep acting like Romney is the first guy to move to the center?
- 04/10/2012 05:46:13 PM
884 Views
The primary was six months ago, and endorsing every aspect of limited welfare states is not centrist
- 04/10/2012 06:00:56 PM
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can you support that insane argument? *NM*
- 05/10/2012 01:10:11 PM
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Romney explicitly endorsed regulations, soaking the rich, entitlements and public education funding.
- 05/10/2012 02:25:49 PM
722 Views
you could have just said no
- 05/10/2012 05:25:44 PM
683 Views
Since when was Romney (or any Republican since TRs day) for more regulation or hiring more teachers?
- 06/10/2012 01:33:53 PM
754 Views
Well Bush was pushing for more banking regulations but Barney Franks blocked him
- 07/10/2012 03:52:50 PM
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A2000, your message should read:
- 04/10/2012 03:42:18 PM
707 Views
I consider the margin of error implied.
- 04/10/2012 05:49:50 PM
597 Views
Unfortunately statistics does not support that.
- 04/10/2012 06:11:56 PM
711 Views
Of course they do; the law of averages supports that.
- 04/10/2012 06:46:27 PM
741 Views
Poll numbers aren't random so even if the law of averages could be applied to a small data set...
- 04/10/2012 07:05:49 PM
622 Views
If not random, they are indicative (if not necessary conclusive,) and the data set is large enough.
- 04/10/2012 08:55:24 PM
608 Views
Let me rephrase: the law of averages is a belief. You are basing your conclusion on a belief.
- 04/10/2012 09:23:50 PM
687 Views
I have never used the Law of Averages to mean anything except the (proven) Law of Large Numbers.
- 05/10/2012 09:22:56 AM
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I'm pretty sure that 136 is not a large number. *NM*
- 05/10/2012 12:20:35 PM
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That is a matter of opinion, but for a binary event I think it huge.
- 05/10/2012 12:42:24 PM
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Without additional data, the default would be that the coin is fair. Since...
- 05/10/2012 05:20:21 PM
655 Views
After 136 trials the DEFAULT assumption no longer applies in the face of ample hard data.
- 06/10/2012 04:02:51 PM
789 Views
I did the same experiment I suggested for you.
- 06/10/2012 04:45:28 PM
626 Views
Still not a 3:1 ratio.
- 06/10/2012 06:09:00 PM
860 Views
Let me try and put it a slightly different way.
- 06/10/2012 08:12:35 PM
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The more lopsided/large the trial, the more LIKELY the coin is unfair;weight is the only way to KNOW
- 07/10/2012 12:09:27 PM
879 Views
You're completely missing the point.
- 07/10/2012 03:34:29 PM
726 Views
But 100 polls isn't analogous to 100 coin flips. Each of thousands of individuals is a coin flip.
- 07/10/2012 11:05:13 PM
724 Views
that is why you can't base things on just one poll
- 05/10/2012 01:27:18 AM
806 Views
You are making the same mistake Joel is making. You should read our discussion. *NM*
- 05/10/2012 01:50:01 AM
460 Views
there is a difference between statistical errors and model or method errors
- 05/10/2012 03:28:38 AM
696 Views
There is a difference between the law of averages and the law of large numbers.
- 05/10/2012 04:45:00 AM
885 Views
you left out part of that wiki quote you pasted
- 05/10/2012 05:30:52 AM
830 Views
You still haven't justified the application of the law of large numbers.
- 05/10/2012 12:24:51 PM
585 Views
I suggest you take some time to understand what I wrote and get back to me
- 05/10/2012 01:12:03 PM
614 Views
I obviously must have missed where you justified the use of the law of large numbers.
- 05/10/2012 04:43:51 PM
657 Views
WellI did that twice and I am waiting for you to refute what I said *NM*
- 05/10/2012 05:28:18 PM
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Since you are unwilling to be helpful...
- 05/10/2012 05:50:47 PM
766 Views
The law is a trend throughout, not a pass/fail based on if the number of polls is "large enough"
- 06/10/2012 03:26:33 PM
764 Views
I'm not saying that the law of large numbers doesn't make the margin of error less when...
- 06/10/2012 04:55:16 PM
632 Views
decades of polling history say you are wrong
- 07/10/2012 04:08:45 PM
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Stating that, "decades of polling history say you are wrong" doesn't prove your point.
- 07/10/2012 05:35:57 PM
600 Views
you are either ignoring what I am saying or you are mentally unable to understand it so I am done
- 07/10/2012 06:11:22 PM
559 Views
As you wish. I'm starting to get the same feeling from you as well. So whatever. But before you go..
- 07/10/2012 07:20:17 PM
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can wait for Ryan vs Bozo the VP
- 04/10/2012 06:07:30 PM
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If Biden performs as expected...
- 04/10/2012 07:46:16 PM
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your take on obama's foreign policy debate performance does not seem like reality
- 04/10/2012 08:00:51 PM
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I never would have thought Romney could lay such a beatdown on Obama as I saw last night.
- 04/10/2012 08:55:46 PM
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we saw the anti-romney last night. i doubt obama is going to be so flat-footed against him next time
- 04/10/2012 10:35:21 PM
654 Views
by that you mean he isn't the Romney the left tried to pretend he was and now they are mad
- 05/10/2012 12:53:00 AM
763 Views
right.... that whole 47% thing is a totally moderate position for a politician to take...
*NM*
- 05/10/2012 04:32:25 AM
367 Views
*NM*
- 05/10/2012 04:32:25 AM
367 Views
about as moderate as thinking the government didn't help New Orleans because it has a lot of blacks
- 05/10/2012 04:51:15 AM
677 Views
if you only have obama's comments from LAST election in 2008 then you have nothing
- 05/10/2012 03:38:07 PM
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who would you consider our number one geopolitical foe?
- 04/10/2012 10:12:53 PM
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China is far more dangerous. *NM*
- 05/10/2012 07:23:06 AM
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Whoa, was not expecting that point of agreement.
- 05/10/2012 12:35:35 PM
763 Views
they may be more dangerous but that doesn't that doesn't automatically make them first
- 05/10/2012 01:09:30 PM
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name two foreign policy decisions russia has blocked since 2008 *NM*
- 05/10/2012 03:41:15 PM
348 Views
It's generally both of them, really, isn't it?
- 05/10/2012 10:03:39 PM
613 Views
Agreed; much of it is that both China and Russia profit handsomely from nuclear proliferation.
- 06/10/2012 01:55:21 PM
745 Views
They both block us in the Middle East but Russia blocks us in Europe o a much larger degree
- 07/10/2012 04:22:40 PM
667 Views
WOW - Even the liberal CNN Poll confirms Romney's crushing victory.
- 04/10/2012 07:27:28 PM
763 Views
I watched it now. A few thoughts (albeit rather late):
- 05/10/2012 09:46:02 PM
804 Views
you are missing a key point
- 07/10/2012 04:34:17 PM
703 Views
Am I missing that point? I thought I said clearly enough that I thought Romney was better. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 08:47:42 PM
424 Views
