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The more lopsided/large the trial, the more LIKELY the coin is unfair;weight is the only way to KNOW Joel Send a noteboard - 07/10/2012 12:09:27 PM
The 136 polls are equivalent to 136 flips of a coin. 75% came up heads and 25% came up tails, and the conclusion is that the coin is biased towards heads.

Lets take a look at two of the results from your trials.

Trial 4: H 40% T 60% (T+20)

If we examine Trial 4 by itself, we might conclude that the coin is biased towards tails.

Trial 5: H 48% T 52% (T+4)

However if we were to examine Trial 5 by itself, we would conclude that the coin is unbiased.

Likewise with two of my results.

With the one I mentioned previously, 69% heads, we might conclude that the coin was biased towards heads. But taking one of the other trials, where the results were 45% heads, we would conclude that the coin was possibly unbiased.

From the same coin, different conclusions can be made depending on which trial is examined but the coin can not be both biased and unbiased.

Yes, the probability of 75% occurring is smaller than 60% occurring but we have no way to determine for any given trial of 100 tests whether it happened because of bias or not.

Again, we both did multiple trials, and none got the same outcome >70% of the time. Your most extreme trial came close, yet we cannot say, "the most extreme of double digit trials ALMOST matched the poll results; therefore the polls suggest no advantage." Within a minimum of 10 trials, the upper bound of inequality was 69%, less than the polls (which have 36% more samples than each of our trials.) Therefore the collective polls most likely show(ed) a genuine Obama advantage.

Granted, that last statement merits MANY qualifiers; none of the polls shared the same sample, and many had different methodology/weighting, so they are analogous to flipping and catching quarter, then flippin a nickel and letting it bounce, then spinning a dime on its edge, etc. until we reach 136. However, as long as each different coin/toss is fair, other differences are irrelevant; the same probability is constant. And, of course, the Law of Large Numbers again tells us that as the number of polls increases all inadvertent biases toward either candidate correspondingly diminish.

Quantifying the size and strength of Obamas advantage in pre-debate polls (and preliminary polling since suggests that advantage took a BIG hit Wednesday) remains impossible, particularly since the victory and error margins were usually very close. However, it is highly improbable (though possible) the collective polling represents NO real advantage for Obama. How improbable is, of course, also impossible to say.
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Romney CRUSHES Obama in First Debate - Leads Swing States by 4% - 04/10/2012 05:32:32 AM 1120 Views
So, is that from a "corrected", "non-skewed" poll? - 04/10/2012 05:51:58 AM 631 Views
Nope, I checked Betfair, the odds on Romney continue to drift - 04/10/2012 10:02:16 AM 718 Views
Wow, you suck at Googling! - 04/10/2012 01:14:22 PM 829 Views
No, you just apparently suck at math - 04/10/2012 07:17:20 PM 593 Views
I know you are sad, but your Messiah may still win.....you never know! - 04/10/2012 07:23:16 PM 659 Views
I'm more of a syndicalist, sorry - 04/10/2012 08:43:48 PM 692 Views
Ooh, would you mind talking more about syndicalism? - 04/10/2012 11:28:40 PM 598 Views
It really should be mandatory for everyone to read factcheck.org after every debate. *NM* - 04/10/2012 09:38:24 AM 369 Views
Seriously. The number of times I squinted and thought, "Wait, that doesn't sound quite right" - 04/10/2012 02:01:12 PM 721 Views
Romney addressed that head-on - 04/10/2012 02:13:44 PM 614 Views
Yeah, that "20 million" comment raised my eyebrows. - 04/10/2012 04:15:49 PM 976 Views
Why are you not counting the elderly? - 04/10/2012 07:33:28 PM 866 Views
Obama - Lost and Bewildered without Teleprompter.....funny stuff! - 04/10/2012 01:10:40 PM 646 Views
A2000, your message should read: - 04/10/2012 03:42:18 PM 669 Views
I consider the margin of error implied. - 04/10/2012 05:49:50 PM 573 Views
Unfortunately statistics does not support that. - 04/10/2012 06:11:56 PM 687 Views
Of course they do; the law of averages supports that. - 04/10/2012 06:46:27 PM 718 Views
Poll numbers aren't random so even if the law of averages could be applied to a small data set... - 04/10/2012 07:05:49 PM 597 Views
If not random, they are indicative (if not necessary conclusive,) and the data set is large enough. - 04/10/2012 08:55:24 PM 586 Views
Let me rephrase: the law of averages is a belief. You are basing your conclusion on a belief. - 04/10/2012 09:23:50 PM 661 Views
I have never used the Law of Averages to mean anything except the (proven) Law of Large Numbers. - 05/10/2012 09:22:56 AM 772 Views
I'm pretty sure that 136 is not a large number. *NM* - 05/10/2012 12:20:35 PM 394 Views
That is a matter of opinion, but for a binary event I think it huge. - 05/10/2012 12:42:24 PM 698 Views
Without additional data, the default would be that the coin is fair. Since... - 05/10/2012 05:20:21 PM 626 Views
After 136 trials the DEFAULT assumption no longer applies in the face of ample hard data. - 06/10/2012 04:02:51 PM 753 Views
I did the same experiment I suggested for you. - 06/10/2012 04:45:28 PM 601 Views
Still not a 3:1 ratio. - 06/10/2012 06:09:00 PM 836 Views
Let me try and put it a slightly different way. - 06/10/2012 08:12:35 PM 701 Views
The more lopsided/large the trial, the more LIKELY the coin is unfair;weight is the only way to KNOW - 07/10/2012 12:09:27 PM 848 Views
You're completely missing the point. - 07/10/2012 03:34:29 PM 700 Views
that is why you can't base things on just one poll - 05/10/2012 01:27:18 AM 772 Views
You are making the same mistake Joel is making. You should read our discussion. *NM* - 05/10/2012 01:50:01 AM 449 Views
there is a difference between statistical errors and model or method errors - 05/10/2012 03:28:38 AM 658 Views
There is a difference between the law of averages and the law of large numbers. - 05/10/2012 04:45:00 AM 853 Views
can wait for Ryan vs Bozo the VP - 04/10/2012 06:07:30 PM 543 Views
+1 - that debate is going to be comical! - 04/10/2012 07:24:26 PM 656 Views
I would end up with alchohol posioning *NM* - 04/10/2012 10:16:51 PM 400 Views
If Biden performs as expected... - 04/10/2012 07:46:16 PM 689 Views
your take on obama's foreign policy debate performance does not seem like reality - 04/10/2012 08:00:51 PM 630 Views
I never would have thought Romney could lay such a beatdown on Obama as I saw last night. - 04/10/2012 08:55:46 PM 702 Views
we saw the anti-romney last night. i doubt obama is going to be so flat-footed against him next time - 04/10/2012 10:35:21 PM 628 Views
Hilarious. - 04/10/2012 11:20:32 PM 583 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 05/10/2012 12:27:33 AM 592 Views
Why can it not be both? - 05/10/2012 12:58:59 PM 731 Views
who would you consider our number one geopolitical foe? - 04/10/2012 10:12:53 PM 709 Views
China is far more dangerous. *NM* - 05/10/2012 07:23:06 AM 305 Views
Whoa, was not expecting that point of agreement. - 05/10/2012 12:35:35 PM 738 Views
I'm not frightened of them, but they're hardly an ally. *NM* - 05/10/2012 03:55:45 PM 406 Views
I am not frightened, but am concerned. - 06/10/2012 01:27:40 PM 710 Views
they may be more dangerous but that doesn't that doesn't automatically make them first - 05/10/2012 01:09:30 PM 709 Views
That's fair enough. *NM* - 05/10/2012 03:54:56 PM 352 Views
WOW - Even the liberal CNN Poll confirms Romney's crushing victory. - 04/10/2012 07:27:28 PM 738 Views
I could have crushed either of them in that debate - 04/10/2012 09:26:07 PM 720 Views
I watched it now. A few thoughts (albeit rather late): - 05/10/2012 09:46:02 PM 772 Views
You are correct on all points. - 07/10/2012 03:12:51 AM 880 Views
"There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe." - 07/10/2012 02:03:49 PM 1162 Views
you are missing a key point - 07/10/2012 04:34:17 PM 677 Views
Am I missing that point? I thought I said clearly enough that I thought Romney was better. *NM* - 07/10/2012 08:47:42 PM 412 Views
maybe, seemed that way to me - 08/10/2012 03:18:18 PM 656 Views

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