The more lopsided/large the trial, the more LIKELY the coin is unfair;weight is the only way to KNOW
Joel Send a noteboard - 07/10/2012 12:09:27 PM
The 136 polls are equivalent to 136 flips of a coin. 75% came up heads and 25% came up tails, and the conclusion is that the coin is biased towards heads.
Lets take a look at two of the results from your trials.
Trial 4: H 40% T 60% (T+20)
If we examine Trial 4 by itself, we might conclude that the coin is biased towards tails.
Trial 5: H 48% T 52% (T+4)
However if we were to examine Trial 5 by itself, we would conclude that the coin is unbiased.
Likewise with two of my results.
With the one I mentioned previously, 69% heads, we might conclude that the coin was biased towards heads. But taking one of the other trials, where the results were 45% heads, we would conclude that the coin was possibly unbiased.
From the same coin, different conclusions can be made depending on which trial is examined but the coin can not be both biased and unbiased.
Yes, the probability of 75% occurring is smaller than 60% occurring but we have no way to determine for any given trial of 100 tests whether it happened because of bias or not.
Lets take a look at two of the results from your trials.
Trial 4: H 40% T 60% (T+20)
If we examine Trial 4 by itself, we might conclude that the coin is biased towards tails.
Trial 5: H 48% T 52% (T+4)
However if we were to examine Trial 5 by itself, we would conclude that the coin is unbiased.
Likewise with two of my results.
With the one I mentioned previously, 69% heads, we might conclude that the coin was biased towards heads. But taking one of the other trials, where the results were 45% heads, we would conclude that the coin was possibly unbiased.
From the same coin, different conclusions can be made depending on which trial is examined but the coin can not be both biased and unbiased.
Yes, the probability of 75% occurring is smaller than 60% occurring but we have no way to determine for any given trial of 100 tests whether it happened because of bias or not.
Again, we both did multiple trials, and none got the same outcome >70% of the time. Your most extreme trial came close, yet we cannot say, "the most extreme of double digit trials ALMOST matched the poll results; therefore the polls suggest no advantage." Within a minimum of 10 trials, the upper bound of inequality was 69%, less than the polls (which have 36% more samples than each of our trials.) Therefore the collective polls most likely show(ed) a genuine Obama advantage.
Granted, that last statement merits MANY qualifiers; none of the polls shared the same sample, and many had different methodology/weighting, so they are analogous to flipping and catching quarter, then flippin a nickel and letting it bounce, then spinning a dime on its edge, etc. until we reach 136. However, as long as each different coin/toss is fair, other differences are irrelevant; the same probability is constant. And, of course, the Law of Large Numbers again tells us that as the number of polls increases all inadvertent biases toward either candidate correspondingly diminish.
Quantifying the size and strength of Obamas advantage in pre-debate polls (and preliminary polling since suggests that advantage took a BIG hit Wednesday) remains impossible, particularly since the victory and error margins were usually very close. However, it is highly improbable (though possible) the collective polling represents NO real advantage for Obama. How improbable is, of course, also impossible to say.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Romney CRUSHES Obama in First Debate - Leads Swing States by 4%
04/10/2012 05:32:32 AM
- 1120 Views
So, is that from a "corrected", "non-skewed" poll?
04/10/2012 05:51:58 AM
- 631 Views

Wow, you suck at Googling!
04/10/2012 01:14:22 PM
- 829 Views

Which poll at your link shows anything but Obama leading every swing state but NC?
04/10/2012 05:41:31 PM
- 740 Views
No, you just apparently suck at math
04/10/2012 07:17:20 PM
- 593 Views

I know you are sad, but your Messiah may still win.....you never know!
04/10/2012 07:23:16 PM
- 659 Views
your mental instability and misperception of reality are worrisome -- please seek professional help
04/10/2012 07:54:45 PM
- 748 Views
I'm more of a syndicalist, sorry
04/10/2012 08:43:48 PM
- 692 Views
Ooh, would you mind talking more about syndicalism?
04/10/2012 11:28:40 PM
- 598 Views
Sure, but I'm no doctrainaire on this
05/10/2012 01:13:19 AM
- 766 Views
Thank you!
Reading the wikipedia entry was making my eyes glaze over. But I can try again now. *NM*
05/10/2012 02:14:50 PM
- 523 Views

It really should be mandatory for everyone to read factcheck.org after every debate. *NM*
04/10/2012 09:38:24 AM
- 369 Views
Seriously. The number of times I squinted and thought, "Wait, that doesn't sound quite right"
04/10/2012 02:01:12 PM
- 721 Views
Romney addressed that head-on
04/10/2012 02:13:44 PM
- 614 Views
Yeah, but it ain't, and it was Obamas job to make that unnecessary.
04/10/2012 03:26:50 PM
- 728 Views
Obama - Lost and Bewildered without Teleprompter.....funny stuff!
04/10/2012 01:10:40 PM
- 646 Views
Which part of Romneys socialism was your favorite?
04/10/2012 03:38:17 PM
- 749 Views
I keep thinking that was what killed Obama.
04/10/2012 04:45:02 PM
- 669 Views
I suspected that was a lot of it, yeah, but he should have been prepared for the Etch-a-Sketch.
04/10/2012 05:25:35 PM
- 653 Views
living in a bubble where everyone agreed on those things and is what killed him
04/10/2012 05:59:29 PM
- 697 Views
why do you silly lefites keep acting like Romney is the first guy to move to the center?
04/10/2012 05:46:13 PM
- 859 Views
The primary was six months ago, and endorsing every aspect of limited welfare states is not centrist
04/10/2012 06:00:56 PM
- 683 Views
can you support that insane argument? *NM*
05/10/2012 01:10:11 PM
- 248 Views
Romney explicitly endorsed regulations, soaking the rich, entitlements and public education funding.
05/10/2012 02:25:49 PM
- 698 Views
you could have just said no
05/10/2012 05:25:44 PM
- 661 Views
Since when was Romney (or any Republican since TRs day) for more regulation or hiring more teachers?
06/10/2012 01:33:53 PM
- 727 Views
Well Bush was pushing for more banking regulations but Barney Franks blocked him
07/10/2012 03:52:50 PM
- 821 Views
A2000, your message should read:
04/10/2012 03:42:18 PM
- 669 Views
I consider the margin of error implied.
04/10/2012 05:49:50 PM
- 573 Views
Unfortunately statistics does not support that.
04/10/2012 06:11:56 PM
- 687 Views
Of course they do; the law of averages supports that.
04/10/2012 06:46:27 PM
- 718 Views
Poll numbers aren't random so even if the law of averages could be applied to a small data set...
04/10/2012 07:05:49 PM
- 597 Views
If not random, they are indicative (if not necessary conclusive,) and the data set is large enough.
04/10/2012 08:55:24 PM
- 586 Views
Let me rephrase: the law of averages is a belief. You are basing your conclusion on a belief.
04/10/2012 09:23:50 PM
- 661 Views
I have never used the Law of Averages to mean anything except the (proven) Law of Large Numbers.
05/10/2012 09:22:56 AM
- 772 Views
I'm pretty sure that 136 is not a large number. *NM*
05/10/2012 12:20:35 PM
- 394 Views
That is a matter of opinion, but for a binary event I think it huge.
05/10/2012 12:42:24 PM
- 698 Views
Without additional data, the default would be that the coin is fair. Since...
05/10/2012 05:20:21 PM
- 626 Views
After 136 trials the DEFAULT assumption no longer applies in the face of ample hard data.
06/10/2012 04:02:51 PM
- 753 Views
I did the same experiment I suggested for you.
06/10/2012 04:45:28 PM
- 601 Views
Still not a 3:1 ratio.
06/10/2012 06:09:00 PM
- 836 Views
Let me try and put it a slightly different way.
06/10/2012 08:12:35 PM
- 701 Views
The more lopsided/large the trial, the more LIKELY the coin is unfair;weight is the only way to KNOW
07/10/2012 12:09:27 PM
- 848 Views
You're completely missing the point.
07/10/2012 03:34:29 PM
- 700 Views
But 100 polls isn't analogous to 100 coin flips. Each of thousands of individuals is a coin flip.
07/10/2012 11:05:13 PM
- 686 Views
that is why you can't base things on just one poll
05/10/2012 01:27:18 AM
- 772 Views
You are making the same mistake Joel is making. You should read our discussion. *NM*
05/10/2012 01:50:01 AM
- 449 Views
there is a difference between statistical errors and model or method errors
05/10/2012 03:28:38 AM
- 658 Views
There is a difference between the law of averages and the law of large numbers.
05/10/2012 04:45:00 AM
- 853 Views
you left out part of that wiki quote you pasted
05/10/2012 05:30:52 AM
- 797 Views
You still haven't justified the application of the law of large numbers.
05/10/2012 12:24:51 PM
- 552 Views
I suggest you take some time to understand what I wrote and get back to me
05/10/2012 01:12:03 PM
- 582 Views
I obviously must have missed where you justified the use of the law of large numbers.
05/10/2012 04:43:51 PM
- 633 Views
WellI did that twice and I am waiting for you to refute what I said *NM*
05/10/2012 05:28:18 PM
- 431 Views
Since you are unwilling to be helpful...
05/10/2012 05:50:47 PM
- 742 Views
The law is a trend throughout, not a pass/fail based on if the number of polls is "large enough"
06/10/2012 03:26:33 PM
- 728 Views
I'm not saying that the law of large numbers doesn't make the margin of error less when...
06/10/2012 04:55:16 PM
- 608 Views
decades of polling history say you are wrong
07/10/2012 04:08:45 PM
- 893 Views
Stating that, "decades of polling history say you are wrong" doesn't prove your point.
07/10/2012 05:35:57 PM
- 577 Views
you are either ignoring what I am saying or you are mentally unable to understand it so I am done
07/10/2012 06:11:22 PM
- 535 Views
As you wish. I'm starting to get the same feeling from you as well. So whatever. But before you go..
07/10/2012 07:20:17 PM
- 686 Views
can wait for Ryan vs Bozo the VP
04/10/2012 06:07:30 PM
- 543 Views
If Biden performs as expected...
04/10/2012 07:46:16 PM
- 689 Views
your take on obama's foreign policy debate performance does not seem like reality
04/10/2012 08:00:51 PM
- 630 Views
I never would have thought Romney could lay such a beatdown on Obama as I saw last night.
04/10/2012 08:55:46 PM
- 702 Views
we saw the anti-romney last night. i doubt obama is going to be so flat-footed against him next time
04/10/2012 10:35:21 PM
- 628 Views
by that you mean he isn't the Romney the left tried to pretend he was and now they are mad
05/10/2012 12:53:00 AM
- 737 Views
right.... that whole 47% thing is a totally moderate position for a politician to take...
*NM*
05/10/2012 04:32:25 AM
- 358 Views

about as moderate as thinking the government didn't help New Orleans because it has a lot of blacks
05/10/2012 04:51:15 AM
- 650 Views
if you only have obama's comments from LAST election in 2008 then you have nothing
05/10/2012 03:38:07 PM
- 586 Views
who would you consider our number one geopolitical foe?
04/10/2012 10:12:53 PM
- 709 Views
China is far more dangerous. *NM*
05/10/2012 07:23:06 AM
- 305 Views
Whoa, was not expecting that point of agreement.
05/10/2012 12:35:35 PM
- 738 Views
they may be more dangerous but that doesn't that doesn't automatically make them first
05/10/2012 01:09:30 PM
- 709 Views
name two foreign policy decisions russia has blocked since 2008 *NM*
05/10/2012 03:41:15 PM
- 338 Views
It's generally both of them, really, isn't it?
05/10/2012 10:03:39 PM
- 584 Views
Agreed; much of it is that both China and Russia profit handsomely from nuclear proliferation.
06/10/2012 01:55:21 PM
- 711 Views
They both block us in the Middle East but Russia blocks us in Europe o a much larger degree
07/10/2012 04:22:40 PM
- 638 Views
WOW - Even the liberal CNN Poll confirms Romney's crushing victory.
04/10/2012 07:27:28 PM
- 738 Views
I watched it now. A few thoughts (albeit rather late):
05/10/2012 09:46:02 PM
- 772 Views
you are missing a key point
07/10/2012 04:34:17 PM
- 677 Views
Am I missing that point? I thought I said clearly enough that I thought Romney was better. *NM*
07/10/2012 08:47:42 PM
- 412 Views