Active Users:363 Time:12/07/2025 02:15:31 PM
But 100 polls isn't analogous to 100 coin flips. Each of thousands of individuals is a coin flip. Burr Send a noteboard - 07/10/2012 11:05:13 PM
The major polls aren't going to be right half the time. They are each going to be right more than 95% of the time.

If we knew nothing, we'd say each person has a 50-50 chance of choosing either Romney or Obama. Polling a single individual would be like the flip of our coin. And that is the flip which we are trying to prove is biased: i.e., that it will flip towards Obama more often than it will flip towards Romney.

If a poll only surveyed 100 people, and we were only looking at that one poll, you would have a point. But each poll is by itself surveying enough people to say with 95% confidence (or usually more) that the average is between this and that.

At 95% confidence, there is only a 5% chance the real average is outside of that margin. So let's say there are two polls saying pretty much the same thing. For one to be wrong, they would both have to be wrong. But there's only a .25% chance of them both being wrong. If there are three polls that say pretty much the same thing, then for one of them wrong they would all three have to be wrong, and for that there is only a .0125% chance. In other words, if there is a true consensus, then the possibility of even one of those polls being wrong becomes absurdly small; because for one to be wrong many of the others would also have to be wrong, and that is absurdly improbable. (Unless, of course, there is some industry-wide modeling error going on.)

Of course, there isn't a true, true, true consensus. Not in the sense that you can use that math so simply to get easy numbers. But there is still something of a consensus, between polls that each have a high confidence level, and so the probability of any one of the polls within the consensus being wrong is still going to be far less than 5%. Assuming there are no great model errors going on industry-wide, that is precisely why there is a consensus: because the probability of a poll with a high confidence level falling outside of those bounds is very small.
||||||||||*MySmiley*
Only so evil.
This message last edited by Burr on 07/10/2012 at 11:13:18 PM
Reply to message
Romney CRUSHES Obama in First Debate - Leads Swing States by 4% - 04/10/2012 05:32:32 AM 1119 Views
So, is that from a "corrected", "non-skewed" poll? - 04/10/2012 05:51:58 AM 630 Views
Nope, I checked Betfair, the odds on Romney continue to drift - 04/10/2012 10:02:16 AM 717 Views
Wow, you suck at Googling! - 04/10/2012 01:14:22 PM 828 Views
No, you just apparently suck at math - 04/10/2012 07:17:20 PM 592 Views
I know you are sad, but your Messiah may still win.....you never know! - 04/10/2012 07:23:16 PM 658 Views
I'm more of a syndicalist, sorry - 04/10/2012 08:43:48 PM 691 Views
Ooh, would you mind talking more about syndicalism? - 04/10/2012 11:28:40 PM 597 Views
It really should be mandatory for everyone to read factcheck.org after every debate. *NM* - 04/10/2012 09:38:24 AM 368 Views
Seriously. The number of times I squinted and thought, "Wait, that doesn't sound quite right" - 04/10/2012 02:01:12 PM 720 Views
Romney addressed that head-on - 04/10/2012 02:13:44 PM 613 Views
Yeah, that "20 million" comment raised my eyebrows. - 04/10/2012 04:15:49 PM 975 Views
Why are you not counting the elderly? - 04/10/2012 07:33:28 PM 865 Views
Obama - Lost and Bewildered without Teleprompter.....funny stuff! - 04/10/2012 01:10:40 PM 645 Views
A2000, your message should read: - 04/10/2012 03:42:18 PM 668 Views
I consider the margin of error implied. - 04/10/2012 05:49:50 PM 572 Views
Unfortunately statistics does not support that. - 04/10/2012 06:11:56 PM 686 Views
Of course they do; the law of averages supports that. - 04/10/2012 06:46:27 PM 717 Views
Poll numbers aren't random so even if the law of averages could be applied to a small data set... - 04/10/2012 07:05:49 PM 596 Views
If not random, they are indicative (if not necessary conclusive,) and the data set is large enough. - 04/10/2012 08:55:24 PM 585 Views
Let me rephrase: the law of averages is a belief. You are basing your conclusion on a belief. - 04/10/2012 09:23:50 PM 660 Views
I have never used the Law of Averages to mean anything except the (proven) Law of Large Numbers. - 05/10/2012 09:22:56 AM 772 Views
I'm pretty sure that 136 is not a large number. *NM* - 05/10/2012 12:20:35 PM 393 Views
That is a matter of opinion, but for a binary event I think it huge. - 05/10/2012 12:42:24 PM 697 Views
Without additional data, the default would be that the coin is fair. Since... - 05/10/2012 05:20:21 PM 626 Views
After 136 trials the DEFAULT assumption no longer applies in the face of ample hard data. - 06/10/2012 04:02:51 PM 753 Views
I did the same experiment I suggested for you. - 06/10/2012 04:45:28 PM 601 Views
Still not a 3:1 ratio. - 06/10/2012 06:09:00 PM 836 Views
Let me try and put it a slightly different way. - 06/10/2012 08:12:35 PM 701 Views
The more lopsided/large the trial, the more LIKELY the coin is unfair;weight is the only way to KNOW - 07/10/2012 12:09:27 PM 847 Views
You're completely missing the point. - 07/10/2012 03:34:29 PM 700 Views
But 100 polls isn't analogous to 100 coin flips. Each of thousands of individuals is a coin flip. - 07/10/2012 11:05:13 PM 686 Views
that is why you can't base things on just one poll - 05/10/2012 01:27:18 AM 772 Views
You are making the same mistake Joel is making. You should read our discussion. *NM* - 05/10/2012 01:50:01 AM 448 Views
there is a difference between statistical errors and model or method errors - 05/10/2012 03:28:38 AM 657 Views
There is a difference between the law of averages and the law of large numbers. - 05/10/2012 04:45:00 AM 852 Views
can wait for Ryan vs Bozo the VP - 04/10/2012 06:07:30 PM 542 Views
+1 - that debate is going to be comical! - 04/10/2012 07:24:26 PM 656 Views
I would end up with alchohol posioning *NM* - 04/10/2012 10:16:51 PM 400 Views
If Biden performs as expected... - 04/10/2012 07:46:16 PM 689 Views
your take on obama's foreign policy debate performance does not seem like reality - 04/10/2012 08:00:51 PM 629 Views
I never would have thought Romney could lay such a beatdown on Obama as I saw last night. - 04/10/2012 08:55:46 PM 701 Views
we saw the anti-romney last night. i doubt obama is going to be so flat-footed against him next time - 04/10/2012 10:35:21 PM 627 Views
Hilarious. - 04/10/2012 11:20:32 PM 582 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 05/10/2012 12:27:33 AM 591 Views
Why can it not be both? - 05/10/2012 12:58:59 PM 730 Views
who would you consider our number one geopolitical foe? - 04/10/2012 10:12:53 PM 708 Views
China is far more dangerous. *NM* - 05/10/2012 07:23:06 AM 304 Views
Whoa, was not expecting that point of agreement. - 05/10/2012 12:35:35 PM 737 Views
I'm not frightened of them, but they're hardly an ally. *NM* - 05/10/2012 03:55:45 PM 405 Views
I am not frightened, but am concerned. - 06/10/2012 01:27:40 PM 709 Views
they may be more dangerous but that doesn't that doesn't automatically make them first - 05/10/2012 01:09:30 PM 709 Views
That's fair enough. *NM* - 05/10/2012 03:54:56 PM 351 Views
WOW - Even the liberal CNN Poll confirms Romney's crushing victory. - 04/10/2012 07:27:28 PM 737 Views
I could have crushed either of them in that debate - 04/10/2012 09:26:07 PM 719 Views
I watched it now. A few thoughts (albeit rather late): - 05/10/2012 09:46:02 PM 771 Views
You are correct on all points. - 07/10/2012 03:12:51 AM 879 Views
"There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe." - 07/10/2012 02:03:49 PM 1161 Views
you are missing a key point - 07/10/2012 04:34:17 PM 677 Views
Am I missing that point? I thought I said clearly enough that I thought Romney was better. *NM* - 07/10/2012 08:47:42 PM 411 Views
maybe, seemed that way to me - 08/10/2012 03:18:18 PM 655 Views

Reply to Message