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Re: *nod* Isaac Send a noteboard - 05/04/2013 03:12:17 PM

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View original postOr if you prefer... Fiscal conservatives who are more socially liberally minded. But you know what they say. "Behind every cynic there's a disappointed idealist." Meh. Ideally we have had both but the polarization of politics have gotten quite depressing. Both are wrong, and both are right regarding certain points.


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View original postWhen you get right down to most issues are principally moral v moral or moral v cash, guns, abortions, drugs, porn, prostitution, gay rights, etc are mostly moral v moral, whereas military spending, environmentalism, welfare, SS, etc are moral v cash. Moral v moral issue rarely have much to do with each other and moral v cash are mostly about priority and efficiency. Liberal and conservative are pretty vague and silly concepts, depending on who you ask inside the GOP I am a moderate establishment republican or an arch-conservative or libertarian and you'll get that from people who have equal knowledge of my political leanings. Same applies to the left. Most people have a few pet issues and they connect them together into their pet uber-ideology, I count myself lucky to have mostly avoided that trap, mostly because I know there's an alternate Universe nearly identical to ours where pot didn't get banned and right now the Dems are screaming about the republicans "Taking blood money from the NRA, Phillip-Morris, and High Times" and another where the republicans are accusing the left of trying to starve children.


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View original postSo no I don't really think a social liberal fiscal hawk is in the cards mostly because the former is something I don't believe exists and the latter is one I view as a matter more associated to how frugal someone is, which really has nothing to do with their abortion or gun stance, but it does have a lot to do with how likely someone is to agree to additional funding for various programs especially those that hinge on giving individuals cash. Your average frugal person if asked to define 'poverty level' is likely to give a lower value than the average person. As long as socially liberal includes, in people's eyes, issues that are more moral v cash as opposed to principally moral v moral, fiscal conservatives are likely to be rarer animals in that group then out. Frugal people usually deny themselves a lot of luxuries and tend to get irritated, unsympathetic, or even outraged by those who don't especially on the taxpayer dime. Forget your wallet or be low on cash some week, go out for dinner with a frugal friend and they don't just order cheap they'll typically get angry if you spend the borrowed cash on steak, even if the amount you borrowed didn't bother them at all and they have no doubt you're good for it. This is a great mindset for people in public office to have, especially with money that isn't theirs, but it doesn't tend to lend itself as readily raising taxes to increase payments to the poor.


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View original postIf you redefine social liberal to be only those things which are moral v moral issues, then yeah, it can happen and probably would. We've had times like that before, it will probably happen again.


View original postI define myself as a social liberal because that's where my opinions lie on the spectrum. and because it's easier to say than a long, drawn-out discussion on each issue. I think that I am fiscally liberal to a certain extent because of what you said above. Did you mean to equate frugality with being fiscally responsible? Because being a tightwad and managing money properly are two different things. As per possessions, I'm a bit of a minimalist, but not completely. I have no debt. No mortgage, no student loans, no credit card bill. If i dont have the money for something, I save up for it or don't buy it. When we do house repairs we do one project at a time, when most people (republicans included) would just take out a loan and have the whole thing fixed at once. Believe me, sometimes I really wish we had. : P However, if I have enough money to remodel the kitchen, and money to eat a certain caliber of food, other consumables, money to put towards savings... Then if I had sufficient funds, I would have no problem putting that money towards a food bank that also gives produce and teaches cooking skills. No, not one that simply hands out food.

I am not making a blanket statement about fiscal responsibility and frugality, I myself am usually considered to have the former and as with most things, on the latter it varies a lot, I can be rather lavish with my funds but at the same time will balk at buying a cup of coffee or premade meals on the grounds that coffee is very cheap and cooking from scratch is cheaper and I suppose because I like cooking. I'm making a generalized statement that a disproportionate number of people we'd call fiscally responsible are frugal, essentially that if you pick a hundred random people and have them judged by one group for 'twenty most frugal' and by another the 'twenty most fiscally responsible' that the list is going to have a lot more overlap than random odds dictate, that is to say, I would expect the lists to match but random odds would have 4 people on both and I'd expect the actual value to be significantly higher.

The second half of that is that frugal person are hardly scrooges but are generally going to have a lower bar for wealth. using another made up example, if I take those hundred people from above and have them individually review suggested cost of living to work out welfare values and write down their figures, if the average for the 100 was say, $1000 a month, I would expect the average for 20 'frugals' to be less than $1000. So I simply concluding that in a pre-existing system paying out X in assistance where baout half think it should be raised and half lowered are unchanged, odds are more than half of 'frugal persons' will be in the latter camp and thus more than half of the fiscally responsible. That isn't meant to be 'all', a super-majority, or even an comment that they are right.

The last aspect of that being that I wouldn't expect moral v moral issue to hinge much on frugality except from secondary factors, e.g. someone who has become republican because they are a fiscal hawk sort is likely to pickup our moral v moral stances and vice-versa, via association rather than it having much to do with frugality..


View original postCan you tell I like to oversimplify? . I think there's the true difference.

I usually say republican or conservative to save time too, but merely as a quick abridged remark that 'isn't exactly wrong'

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
This message last edited by Isaac on 05/04/2013 at 03:15:51 PM
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Liberalism has officially failed - Poverty reaches 1960 levels - - 04/04/2013 12:33:15 AM 1072 Views
As has Conservatism. - 04/04/2013 12:37:23 AM 549 Views
I know it hurts.....but the truth about liberalism will set you free! - 04/04/2013 12:42:57 AM 638 Views
Have you ever tried to fish when really hungry? - 04/04/2013 06:32:17 AM 565 Views
HA! HA! In your dreams that's how liberalism works. How about..... - 04/04/2013 04:59:33 PM 520 Views
and lo, Jesus said unto the poor gathered to him: "begone freeloaders! the wealthy need more money" - 04/04/2013 06:43:32 PM 540 Views
Interestingly enough.... - 04/04/2013 09:20:06 PM 570 Views
Re: Interestingly enough.... - 04/04/2013 09:31:27 PM 572 Views
Well here is where theology gets fun.... - 04/04/2013 09:48:50 PM 634 Views
The entire post...as well as many of the sub-threads....prompts the question of: - 04/04/2013 09:39:16 PM 628 Views
it depends on what your definition of "succeed" is i guess.... - 04/04/2013 10:27:30 PM 668 Views
And that is certainly your opinion.... - 04/04/2013 10:54:08 PM 682 Views
Re: And that is certainly your opinion.... - 04/04/2013 11:57:34 PM 747 Views
Hmm good questions - 04/04/2013 10:29:45 PM 652 Views
you contradicted yourself - 04/04/2013 10:44:47 PM 583 Views
Re: you contradicted yourself - 04/04/2013 10:54:35 PM 647 Views
i think i understand where you're coming from.... - 05/04/2013 07:33:32 PM 612 Views
I see the problem - 04/04/2013 06:45:53 PM 574 Views
since you don't trust the gov't, what are you doing to help the poor survive? - 04/04/2013 12:58:49 AM 664 Views
A few serious answers, if you can handle them..... - 04/04/2013 04:15:32 AM 567 Views
Re: A few serious answers, if you can handle them..... - 04/04/2013 06:42:00 PM 687 Views
Perhaps its time to try a little fact checking. - 04/04/2013 03:34:44 AM 796 Views
I'm happy you agree with me, liberalism has failed and it's time for something different. - 04/04/2013 03:47:17 AM 546 Views
Oh the cleverness of you. - 04/04/2013 03:52:07 AM 696 Views
Wow, I'm shocked. Yes, let's stick with the failed status quo. Good plan! - 04/04/2013 04:17:32 AM 501 Views
Who said anything about the status quo? I just said I didn't agree with your solution. *NM* - 04/04/2013 04:19:37 AM 358 Views
Then time to step up, what's your idea? - 04/04/2013 04:22:58 AM 503 Views
As you might say, "What do you expect, a free ride?" - 04/04/2013 11:45:02 AM 685 Views
How typicaly conservative! And no. - 04/04/2013 02:05:00 PM 563 Views
Agreed and this is how we will finance such a move - 04/04/2013 04:01:46 AM 615 Views
I'm glad you agree! - 04/04/2013 04:21:25 AM 582 Views
No, in Europe, liberalism is generally successful - 04/04/2013 06:15:34 AM 550 Views
Liberalism & Conservatism 'officially fail' about ever other year I've noticed, still around though *NM* - 04/04/2013 09:02:42 AM 275 Views
Yes. I wonder if there will ever be an age of fiscally responsible/conservative liberals. - 05/04/2013 03:41:09 AM 608 Views
I guess it depends on how you define the terms - 05/04/2013 08:52:25 AM 759 Views
*nod* - 05/04/2013 01:30:47 PM 631 Views
Re: *nod* - 05/04/2013 03:12:17 PM 528 Views
Off topic: are you gardening yet? - 05/04/2013 02:25:06 PM 498 Views
Initial stuff - 05/04/2013 03:21:25 PM 463 Views
Re: Initial stuff - 05/04/2013 07:10:57 PM 539 Views
Re: Initial stuff - 05/04/2013 08:19:16 PM 582 Views
Re: Initial stuff - 05/04/2013 11:21:56 PM 586 Views
I didn't know they make LED grow lights! - 06/04/2013 12:18:25 AM 729 Views
It's a bit newer because of the price, that's been dropping - 06/04/2013 01:20:10 AM 610 Views
Re: Initial stuff - 05/04/2013 11:11:12 PM 691 Views
Re: Initial stuff - 05/04/2013 07:56:47 PM 591 Views
Re: Initial stuff - 06/04/2013 12:36:10 AM 727 Views
Re: Initial stuff - 06/04/2013 02:01:59 AM 633 Views
Re: Initial stuff - 06/04/2013 03:19:39 AM 476 Views
Yes, the logical step is to go for Nordic style socialism. - 04/04/2013 03:19:17 PM 602 Views
well that and a tiny homogenous population funded by large oil reserves - 04/04/2013 06:57:51 PM 570 Views
Eh, you're describing norway. - 04/04/2013 08:11:25 PM 525 Views
The Economist (of all people) was singing the praises of the Nordic countries recently. - 04/04/2013 08:49:36 PM 538 Views
Hey, guess what? - 04/04/2013 08:55:59 PM 533 Views
Awesome. - 04/04/2013 09:22:13 PM 430 Views
Oh my gosh! - 04/04/2013 09:27:17 PM 476 Views
Yes! - 04/04/2013 09:33:45 PM 514 Views
Yay! - 04/04/2013 09:37:40 PM 532 Views
We're Maryland, actually, as I recall. - 04/04/2013 10:15:49 PM 509 Views
Eh survival of the fittest - 04/04/2013 06:18:52 PM 612 Views
Excuse me? - 04/04/2013 08:42:24 PM 559 Views
Cry me a river - 04/04/2013 08:55:40 PM 590 Views
Funny. - 04/04/2013 09:18:15 PM 571 Views
Re: Funny. - 04/04/2013 10:19:35 PM 576 Views
good for you for making it but you are so full of bullshit - 04/04/2013 10:38:45 PM 604 Views
Re: good for you for making it but you are so full of bullshit - 04/04/2013 10:49:14 PM 573 Views
Wow. - 04/04/2013 11:27:06 PM 578 Views
Re: Wow. - 05/04/2013 12:18:08 AM 677 Views
congrats on being part of the problem.... *NM* - 05/04/2013 04:48:58 AM 310 Views
It's pointless to argue with those who don't understand the psychology of generational poverty. *NM* - 05/04/2013 03:43:40 AM 290 Views
Clearly. *NM* - 05/04/2013 07:32:21 PM 268 Views
Oh the "it's nobody's fault excuse" - 05/04/2013 08:56:51 PM 543 Views
Get back to me when you know wtf you're talking about. *NM* - 05/04/2013 09:03:08 PM 294 Views
I'm back *NM* - 06/04/2013 01:40:47 AM 266 Views
You're over-generalizing a bit - 06/04/2013 01:49:02 AM 654 Views

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