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Interesting general thought train, let me hop on board Isaac Send a noteboard - 07/07/2013 12:52:18 PM

View original postI'm only thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that part of the entire principle of nationhood is based on the idea of cumulative self-interest. This makes me wonder if worldwide government could ever feasibly be a solution prior to either the colonization of other planets or the discovery of alien civilizations.

I'd point out that pretty much all social interaction is based on more or less the same concept as nationhood. Also, while I know a lot of people view a united Earth as a future outcome, especially in an inter planetary context, I find it very unrealistic. For one thing I doubt we'll ever colonize that many planets when its probably a hell of a lot easier to build them instead - I don't think people really appreciate how much energy is involved in even slow-boat interstellar travel compared to, say, disassembling a few asteroids to produce a few billion of these). And for another in terms of colonies, especially absent native exploitation and colonization by dissident factions, a mega-country is much more like to form around the US and its couple of hundred orbital/asteroid colonies then the US with Mexico, I'd wager.


View original postI want to walk through this, so let's start small. Imagine that the entire world is one family. Traditionally, families are small enough that in the past they were organized like a dictatorship, with the father in charge. But let's pretend that this family is democratic. Each person in the family, adult or child, gets one vote on any important issue. Therefore, each person will vote with self-interest in mind, or at best will organize alliances to get what they want.

If families acted with personal self-interest in mind there wouldn't be many families to begin with.


View original postBut suddenly this democratic family discovers that there's a whole village out there, with lots of different families. Suddenly, the self-interest perspective shifts, and each individual family member realizes that they have more in common with each other, and more shared interests with each other, than they have with the other families. When it comes to governing the village, each family gets one vote. Now the family starts operating in the self-interest of the family, not of the individuals that comprise the family. Each family wants to do better than the other families, so in the interest of doing that, the members of the family put aside their individual differences adn vote for what's best for the family as a whole.

Just going to point out that default human culture is tribe/village, not nuclear families, and democracy is generally only a good governing method, like most governing methods, where the governed don't all know each other very well.


View original postNext, the village discovers that there are actually lots of different villages out there. Suddenly the issue of survival and success is based on the concept of what's best for the village. So the perspective shifts again. Suddenly the families in the village have more in common with each other than with the people in those other villages. So the individual families in the village start to put aside their differences and work together to do what's best so that the entire village will survive and prosper. When voting at the conclave of villages, each village represents its own interests.


View original postBut lo, this group of villages discover that there are other groups of villages. Each group calls itself a nation. The members of one nation decide they have more in common with each other than with the people in a different nation, and want to do what's best to survive and prosper. Voting is now based on what's best for the nation as a whole.

You'll leaving out that these tribes routinely interacted with each other and the nature of the industry did not require unified rule, just a loose agreement not to hunt each other's lands and occasional trade or right of passage. Early nations typically spawned out of water rights, hydraulic despotism, places where people were packed together and where someone would inevitably have control over the river feeding the flood plain, democracy rarely featured in those arrangements.


View original postThe next step, of course, is when all the different nations discover that there are other groups of nations out there on other planets. At that point the people of one world (Earth) would be more likely to decide that they have more in common with each other than they do with the people of the other worlds, and that they need to vote together to represent what's best for the planet, instead of what's best for the individual nations.

I'm not sure why, space isn't really set up for border disputes, moving the boundary between two stars a couple billion miles isn't forfeiting valuable real estate, and there is absolutely no item worth trading between stars systems except information. Continental politics are a bad basis for interstellar ones, tiny islands on the vast pacific ocean better fit the bill, and are very different.


View original postIf this progression is reasonably correct, then it may be that we need the knowledge of other worlds, and the necessity of survival and prosperity in competition with them, before we could really set aside our differences and have a true world government. Which is a tremendously cliche sci-fi notion, but maybe it's cliche for a reason.

Well the progression is flawed, IMHO, especially because it does delve into sci-fi land. Humans aren't going to rally around a unified government because of aliens unless there's a real perceived threat, and to be blunt, if there was we'd all shortly thereafter be dead. Any species capable of crossing the interstellar void could crush us like a bug. They don't need to invade us or bombs us, all they need to do is not bother decelerating any ship they send and just let it hit the planet. If some aircraft-carrier-sized ship hits old Earth at half the speed of light it would be worse then a few million nuclear bombs going off. The flipside of that is that if you have power sources capable of doing that planets, and even stars, aren't actually valuable real estate anymore, because they don't really have anything you need that isn't more readily available elsewhere.


View original postAfter worlds comes galaxies binding together to compete with other galaxies. Then parallel universes. Then things get complicated.

You get to that scale you may as well be modeling human civilization by looking at ant hives and trying to figure out why they don't seem to develop a postal service and souvenir shops. There's pretty obviously no inter-galactic governments, I'd be very damn surprised if there are even inter-stellar ones, doubly so if there wasn't FTL options.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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Interesting general thought train, let me hop on board - 07/07/2013 12:52:18 PM 734 Views
Mmm. - 09/07/2013 05:44:04 PM 701 Views
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