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I'm thinking the board is dead enough to quality for "rainy day" status, but okay.

Legolas Send a noteboard - 08/07/2013 06:49:57 PM

View original postI'll move to table private v public media for a rainy day. Yes, there is a notably large quantity of "-" on that table (pages 94-103 of this doc for anyone else reading this) and I think that kind of underscores why I don't like these comparisons. That's one of the better ones for in depth looks, and I don't blame its shortcomings on a lack of effort. Rather I just think its unreasonable to assume these sorts of indexes can produce meaningful results. Even if we can achieve agreement on whether or not X=Free we always come back to the arbitrary weighting. e.g. why everything on that list is 0-10 but for some reason torture is alway (that I saw) a 0, 5, or 10. Surely if even slavery gets to use the other digits, and even decimal places, they could have done better than "yes, somewhat, and no." considering things like "Age of consent of homosexual couples" apparently is deemed of significant import as freedom of assembly especially considering I didn't see anyone on that list that didn't get 0, 10, or - for that entry. Apparently proving my hunch that countries that would consider having different ages of consent for gays probably are places that tend to have very iffy notions about 'consent' and usually think homosexuality is an illness best treated with Zyklon B.

I'm not sure I agree that these indexes can't produce meaningful results. If you take real 0-10 scales for everything and somehow manage to get proper data everywhere, it would be a lot more useful than it is now. Still subjective of course in the sense that people have their personal priorities, and you can still skew the results by including or omitting various factors, but at least the results should be a bit more reliable.

Regarding the age of consent for homosexual couples, that's actually something that in many Western countries was different from the straight one until very recently (not necessarily higher, iirc there were some cases where it was lower). Your hunch is quite off, I would say - the kind of countries you describe would simply not have an age of consent for homosexual couples as it would be illegal at any age.

View original postThere's not much one can do to avoid having to make a call on something like "Should legalized [abortion/heroine/suicide/etc] count into the freedom index?", mileage obviously varies, but not too many people would argue that legal heroine and legal slavery would equal a country with bans on both, and especially with so many parameters in there that effect can't just be handwaved aside.

True. One could adjust the weights to put the focus more heavily on the more commonly accepted human rights and freedoms, though. Or even leave out the disputable moral quandaries altogether. Then the differences between the Western democracies might become nearly negligible, but there would still be differences that could be of some interest - putting the focus on issues of free speech vs. curbing hate speech (Holocaust denial - should it be legal even in the country that committed the Holocaust?), economic freedom vs. beneficial regulation (how intrusive should pollution regulations be?), personal freedom vs. nanny state (is it really the government's business if a 17-year old is drinking alcohol?), and so on.

But yeah, many of these issues, instead of being about more freedom or less freedom, are about cultural preferences and customs. As a 16 and 17-year old on my first trips to the States, the freedom I was used to that was denied to me (= being allowed to drink beer or wine in bars or restaurants) certainly left more of an impression than the freedoms I temporarily gained (including the flip side of the same coin, being allowed to drive a car instead, which wasn't exactly of any use to someone without the opportunity to obtain a licence).

View original postIt's the shack vs mansion thing. All these indexes ever do is point out the blisteringly obvious then achieve a hair-splitting list of who sucks most and least. That's why I liked the one Rana had where you could at least adjust your own weighting. That's all these are really good for, some amusing internet survey where you say if you think X=free then rate its importance 1-10 and when you're done it spews out your preferred countries in order.

I guess, but countries like New Zealand tend to score high on all such lists - there must be something to that.

View original postActually that might make a cool website, take the quiz then it gives you links to those countries complete with tourism and media ads, akin to 'which superhero are you?' quizzes, and almost as accurate

Heh, yeah.

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Gallup - Conservatives more proud to be American than Liberals.....

Anonymous2000 - 04/07/2013 09:12:12 PM 1456 Views

I'm not surprised either. *NM* nossy - 04/07/2013 09:19:25 PM 410 Views

How does one American? *NM* Stephen - 04/07/2013 09:58:03 PM 425 Views

That seems like a no-brainer. What I find more remarkable... Legolas - 04/07/2013 10:15:10 PM 853 Views

I'm not all that surprised by that, either. nossy - 04/07/2013 10:47:41 PM 816 Views

I'm trying to think my way through this, and I keep running into holes. Nate - 04/07/2013 10:48:59 PM 889 Views

I really don't want to get into the sickness known as nationalism (patriotism) imlad - 05/07/2013 07:10:09 PM 1044 Views

I'm curious — how would you avoid regionalism? Nate - 05/07/2013 08:15:02 PM 861 Views

P.S. (more thoughts on worldwide government) Nate - 05/07/2013 08:57:01 PM 846 Views

Interesting general thought train, let me hop on board Isaac - 07/07/2013 12:52:18 PM 964 Views

Mmm. Nate - 09/07/2013 05:44:04 PM 905 Views

Interplanetary just doesn't leave much interdependence Isaac - 09/07/2013 08:14:18 PM 894 Views

Them's some cool beans. Nate - 09/07/2013 09:11:50 PM 815 Views

Re: Them's some cool beans. Isaac - 09/07/2013 10:11:50 PM 785 Views

At the risk of putting this post even further into Books board territory... Legolas - 10/07/2013 06:33:02 PM 779 Views

I've decided to pretend we're still entirely on the original subject

Isaac - 11/07/2013 01:13:15 AM 851 Views

Hold the phone, Mabel: Patriotism and nationalism are not synonymous. Joel - 11/08/2013 08:04:40 PM 784 Views

There were two questions on that poll. ranagrande - 05/07/2013 07:53:13 PM 1108 Views

That's because being born in America is the best thing they ever did imlad - 05/07/2013 07:04:54 PM 1013 Views

Congrats! You win the bitterness award. Anonymous2000 - 05/07/2013 09:49:00 PM 936 Views

Bitterness? How so? imlad - 08/07/2013 05:26:50 PM 1019 Views

Nice post. Your honor, I rest my case!

*NM* Anonymous2000 - 08/07/2013 06:15:47 PM 409 Views

Er. Obviously? beetnemesis - 06/07/2013 02:24:44 PM 888 Views

Actually, liberals say, let's make the US a socialist state and control everything people do. Anonymous2000 - 06/07/2013 04:54:00 PM 930 Views

By what measure, I wonder... Dannymac - 06/07/2013 04:21:57 PM 871 Views

Being proud of America has zero to do with our government..... Anonymous2000 - 06/07/2013 04:57:30 PM 776 Views

I don't think this is accurate. ranagrande - 06/07/2013 10:58:43 PM 892 Views

Re: I don't think this is accurate. nossy - 06/07/2013 11:46:47 PM 867 Views

You'd have to list the study Isaac - 07/07/2013 12:10:13 AM 985 Views

Every study. ranagrande - 07/07/2013 01:14:48 AM 982 Views

Really, you have a list of every single study conducted on the matter? Isaac - 07/07/2013 02:51:05 AM 992 Views

I have a list of every study I listed! ranagrande - 07/07/2013 03:55:21 AM 1065 Views

Damn, you just got schooled!

Good Job by Isaac. Anonymous2000 - 07/07/2013 04:27:45 AM 856 Views

Were you actively trying to prove the point of your opponents there? Legolas - 07/07/2013 09:10:06 AM 817 Views

I hope you'll understand that I don't find that compelling

Isaac - 07/07/2013 05:07:52 AM 1029 Views

I noticed that too in the Cato study. Legolas - 07/07/2013 09:50:19 AM 874 Views

There is admittedly a big difference between BBC and Pravda but I think mistrust is often justified Isaac - 07/07/2013 11:39:03 AM 988 Views

I'm thinking the board is dead enough to quality for "rainy day" status, but okay.

Legolas - 08/07/2013 06:49:57 PM 966 Views

Also it was raining at the time here, still is, NE Ohio has been a giant mud puddle all month

Isaac - 08/07/2013 11:14:57 PM 846 Views

Catos study is a transparent joke, hence ranking a city in Red China second for capitalisms sake. Joel - 11/08/2013 08:44:04 PM 794 Views

Nice non-reply. Dannymac - 09/07/2013 05:23:25 PM 854 Views

You didn't say anything meriting an in-depth response Isaac - 09/07/2013 08:52:13 PM 796 Views

Actually.... Dannymac - 10/07/2013 03:00:42 AM 767 Views

One of your examples was bad and you want me to do the others too? Isaac - 10/07/2013 03:52:20 AM 831 Views

Pride comes before the fall. *NM* heartbreak - 12/07/2013 06:33:56 PM 460 Views

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<quote id="277709"><quote id="277682">I'll move to table private v public media for a rainy day. Yes, there is a notably large quantity of "-" on that table (pages 94-103 of <a href="http://www.freetheworld.com/2012/freedomIndex/Towards-Worldwide-Index-3-Vasquez-Stumberger.pdf">this doc</a> for anyone else reading this) and I think that kind of underscores why I don't like these comparisons. That's one of the better ones for in depth looks, and I don't blame its shortcomings on a lack of effort. Rather I just think its unreasonable to assume these sorts of indexes *can* produce meaningful results. Even if we can achieve agreement on whether or not X=Free we always come back to the arbitrary weighting. e.g. why everything on that list is 0-10 but for some reason torture is alway (that I saw) a 0, 5, or 10. Surely if even slavery gets to use the other digits, and even decimal places, they could have done better than "yes, somewhat, and no." considering things like "Age of consent of homosexual couples" apparently is deemed of significant import as *freedom of assembly* especially considering I didn't see anyone on that list that didn't get 0, 10, or - for that entry. Apparently proving my hunch that countries that would consider having different ages of consent for gays probably are places that tend to have very iffy notions about 'consent' and usually think homosexuality is an illness best treated with Zyklon B.</quote></quote>

<quote id="277709">I'm not sure I agree that these indexes can't produce meaningful results. If you take real 0-10 scales for everything and somehow manage to get proper data everywhere, it would be a lot more useful than it is now. Still subjective of course in the sense that people have their personal priorities, and you can still skew the results by including or omitting various factors, but at least the results should be a bit more reliable. </quote>

<quote id="277709">Regarding the age of consent for homosexual couples, that's actually something that in many Western countries was different from the straight one until very recently (not necessarily higher, iirc there were some cases where it was lower). Your hunch is quite off, I would say - the kind of countries you describe would simply not have an age of consent for homosexual couples as it would be illegal at any age. </quote>

<quote id="277709"><quote id="277682">There's not much one can do to avoid having to make a call on something like "Should legalized [abortion/heroine/suicide/etc] count into the freedom index?", mileage obviously varies, but not too many people would argue that legal heroine and legal slavery would equal a country with bans on both, and especially with so many parameters in there that effect can't just be handwaved aside. </quote></quote>

<quote id="277709">True. One could adjust the weights to put the focus more heavily on the more commonly accepted human rights and freedoms, though. Or even leave out the disputable moral quandaries altogether. Then the differences between the Western democracies might become nearly negligible, but there would still be differences that could be of some interest - putting the focus on issues of free speech vs. curbing hate speech (Holocaust denial - should it be legal even in the country that committed the Holocaust?), economic freedom vs. beneficial regulation (how intrusive should pollution regulations be?), personal freedom vs. nanny state (is it really the government's business if a 17-year old is drinking alcohol?), and so on. </quote>

<quote id="277709">But yeah, many of these issues, instead of being about more freedom or less freedom, are about cultural preferences and customs. As a 16 and 17-year old on my first trips to the States, the freedom I was used to that was denied to me (= being allowed to drink beer or wine in bars or restaurants) certainly left more of an impression than the freedoms I temporarily gained (including the flip side of the same coin, being allowed to drive a car instead, which wasn't exactly of any use to someone without the opportunity to obtain a licence). </quote>

<quote id="277709"><quote id="277682">It's the shack vs mansion thing. All these indexes ever do is point out the blisteringly obvious then achieve a hair-splitting list of who sucks most and least. That's why I liked the one Rana had where you could at least adjust your own weighting. That's all these are really good for, some amusing internet survey where you say if you think X=free then rate its importance 1-10 and when you're done it spews out your preferred countries in order. </quote></quote>

<quote id="277709">I guess, but countries like New Zealand tend to score high on all such lists - there must be something to that. </quote>

<quote id="277709"><quote id="277682">Actually that might make a cool website, take the quiz then it gives you links to those countries complete with tourism and media ads, akin to 'which superhero are you?' quizzes, and almost as accurate :P</quote></quote>

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