Active Users:172 Time:18/05/2024 04:34:54 PM
That's part of what I was thinking Artsapat Send a noteboard - 23/03/2010 07:50:19 AM
In part because "black music" is an antiquated term at best and quite insulting in several contexts. The black paint would be construed by several as being related to blackface attire and that is very controversial here and has been for at least one generation, if not two.

Interesting how social mores differ from culture to culture, though.


In the Netherlands, we have Sinterklaas, who is really the ancestor to Father Christmas. Instead of a short tubby man, we have a long, thin bishop. He is modelled after the real bishop of Myra (born in Patara, Turkey around 280), called Saint Nicholas. He had already been honoured in this region for centuries, when somewhere in the 19th century, he got a loyal sidekick ("Zwarte Piet", or Black Pete), who was a clown of Moorish decent. Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet go around children's homes every year around Dec 5th, to give presents and Zwarte Piet clowns around and is generally clumsy.

Of course, in the Netherlands of the 19th century and early 20th century, we had no black people to play Zwarte Piet for the children. So, it's been a tradition for almost 200 years to paint some people's face black and have them play Zwarte Piet. (See linked picture.)

This is interesting culturally, because of two reasons. First, it's something that will never be accepted in the US, even though it was the Dutch who introduced Sinterklaas (and thus Father Christmas after several iterations on US soil). To illustrate, a picture of a Zwarte Piet was once one of the "WTF is this?" pictures at I-am-bored.com. On the other hand, my parents have lived in NJ for years and have dressed up as Sinterklaas (my father with an EPIC beard) and Zwarte Piet for at least the past five years, for the Dutch children (who are more American than Dutch) that live in the tri-state area.

Secondly, it's becoming more and more a problem in the Netherlands too. Every year, you hear more people say it's racist, with the other side claiming its tradition that's not meant to BE racist (1). The Blackface attire is not so much of a problem, but more the depiction of a black man/woman who is the stupid/clumsy sidekick of the wise, white man. I used to be on the traditional side of the debate, but since I've been talking to Dutch people of Surinamese and Antillian descent who are genuinely insulted (and since I started to understand a bit more about the blackface controversy in the US), I'm starting to shift.




(1) Before Zwarte Piet, Sinterklaas used to work alone, or with the devil at his side for some reason. When Zwarte Piet was introduced, the Europeans didn't see much difference between Moors and Devils, so it's probably even intended to be racist since the beginning.

=========
EDIT: once again, smileys....
The mystery deepens... I think. *MySmiley*
Zwarte Piet
This message last edited by Artsapat on 23/03/2010 at 07:50:58 AM
Reply to message
Is it racist?: Commercial for Jazz/Soul radio - 22/03/2010 01:47:45 PM 2594 Views
I'd say that's pretty racist. - 22/03/2010 01:53:59 PM 638 Views
I don't think it's racist at all - 22/03/2010 07:15:55 PM 666 Views
Uh. - 22/03/2010 09:36:35 PM 784 Views
Re: Uh. - 29/03/2010 07:03:14 PM 722 Views
I'm not Dutch, but that was a pretty ignornant claim - 29/03/2010 07:20:09 PM 653 Views
Re: I'm not Dutch, but that was a pretty ignornant claim - 29/03/2010 07:28:34 PM 740 Views
Not "higher" nor "lower," but "different" would be the word to use here - 29/03/2010 07:46:15 PM 589 Views
Re: Not "higher" nor "lower," but "different" would be the word to use here - 29/03/2010 07:53:56 PM 545 Views
An illustration of Larry's point... - 29/03/2010 08:14:55 PM 609 Views
This. ~points at Larry's post~ *NM* - 29/03/2010 07:42:35 PM 376 Views
Re: This. ~points at Larry's post~ - 29/03/2010 07:57:30 PM 630 Views
Um. - 29/03/2010 08:00:54 PM 772 Views
Re: Um. - 29/03/2010 08:44:31 PM 559 Views
My question for you was on that one line that Larry responded to. - 29/03/2010 08:46:26 PM 607 Views
I was thinking the same thing as Rebekah - 23/03/2010 07:15:51 AM 642 Views
I don't see it - 22/03/2010 08:19:31 PM 633 Views
+1 *NM* - 22/03/2010 08:30:01 PM 357 Views
Re: +2 *NM* - 22/03/2010 09:53:43 PM 363 Views
Re: +3 *NM* - 22/03/2010 10:00:55 PM 340 Views
i'd say the actions in the commercial are more racist than the words - 22/03/2010 10:00:02 PM 634 Views
It would not float here in the US - 22/03/2010 10:07:08 PM 636 Views
Agreed. - 23/03/2010 05:36:14 AM 798 Views
Could you please expand on one point in your reasoning? - 23/03/2010 07:20:31 AM 635 Views
It's not race specific music if it's enjoyed/performed/presented by various races. - 23/03/2010 07:32:33 AM 872 Views
MOBO - 23/03/2010 10:20:22 AM 586 Views
Nice term, if a bit clumsy - 23/03/2010 11:10:34 AM 598 Views
The trouble lies in historical neuroses cooked in our melting pot, I think. - 23/03/2010 11:29:06 AM 628 Views
I suspect so as well - 23/03/2010 12:32:00 PM 726 Views
Well, the thing is, "American" is PURELY a culture, not a race. - 23/03/2010 01:55:59 PM 804 Views
That's part of what I was thinking - 23/03/2010 07:50:19 AM 953 Views
Only if it's racist to mention the fact that different races exist. Which seems to be the US view. - 23/03/2010 09:24:23 AM 624 Views
Agreed - 23/03/2010 10:21:59 AM 652 Views
Not at all, the problem is when people seem to say something is exclusive to a given race. - 23/03/2010 11:51:06 AM 860 Views
I agree with some of what you say, but I think you're assuming more than is warranted. - 23/03/2010 02:33:34 PM 595 Views
perhaps not as default... - 23/03/2010 03:08:19 PM 659 Views
The term encompasses listeners, performers and presenters. - 23/03/2010 04:42:55 PM 674 Views
So it's really not about skin color any more, right? - 23/03/2010 09:12:20 PM 720 Views
it's racist and unacceptable. - 23/03/2010 09:07:10 PM 745 Views

Reply to Message