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I've been known to refer to OK as "North TX" but they don't like that. Joel Send a noteboard - 20/04/2010 01:42:21 PM
Au contraire, Turkey isn't as extreme as China (the short list of places off the top of my head that are is Burma, North Korea, Zimbabwe and the Democratic Republic of Congo) but it's a matter of degrees. A choice between a military government that puts you in the proverbial "Turkish prison" for criticizing government past or present, or a fundamentalist one that simply wants to execute you as an infidel. A quick pass by Wikipedia seems to indicate "First World" and "Industrialized World" are nearly synonymous in modern parlance (while claiming that, in essence, a "First World" nation was originally no more nor less than a NATO ally) so maybe that's not the right term. "Free world" then, or "civilized world" if you prefer. Places that don't imprison or execute you because they don't like what you say (which is what makes defending this programs airing on the grounds of free speech so absurd. ) Turkey, China or the indigenous people of Charon, they shouldn't be allowed participation in free democratic international communities while rejecting trivial details like freedom and democracy out of hand. Whether it's Turkeys terrorist sympathizing genocide denying junta seeking EU admission or Chinas "Dickens meets Assyria" membership in the WTO it amounts to the degrees of the same thing. When they demonstrate themselves to be the kind of civilized forward looking states that have the economic and diplomatic benefits of a France or Japan they should receive them, but not encouraged to have their economic and political cake and eat it, too. "We want in the WTO but rarely enforce our minimum wage (which, last I checked, was about $0.20/hr)!" "We want to join the EU that criminalized Holocaust denial but jail people for saying we committed genocide!" People in hell want ice water.

Jeez, you sure like to pack all your pet hates in to one post, rather than staying on topic.
1) Turkey has a democratically elected government, not a military government.

Of course it does; after all, the President's been chosen by popular vote for almost two whole years now, the ruling party only had to order three elections to elect their preferred candidate and during that time the military has only once threatened to intervene if the government elected seems too religious. However could I have gotten the idea Turkeys political scene is divided between a secular military and fundamentalist religious faction rather than fully democratic?
2) My understanding, going on memory, is that the industrialized nations were split into two groups - essentially us (NATO plus others like New Zealand, Australia etc) and them (the Commies). We got to be called the First World, they got the Second World and every one else was Third World because they didn't count.
Now the the Eastern block has opened up and had elections, it means everyone is pretty much First World by default - plus people only really use the term Third World and don't get why.

That seems to be the case; again, perhaps I need better nomenclature. We can speak of "the Free World" to mean the democratic and economically advanced nations predominantly found in the West; that excludes both the economically advanced authoritarian Soviet governments and others like them as well as the developing world without being specific to anyone save the industrialized democratic countries.

Let me be clear: I don't hate the populations of the "Unfree World" I mostly pity them, but I think it both foolish and dangerous to invite national governments chosen on the basis of who has the biggest gun to play a role in shaping international policy.
3) As far as I can understand your on topic point in there it seems to be that Turkey should have free speech, except when it doesn't suit us for them to have it. That seems a really shaky argument, no matter how well it is buried in an overall rant.

No, you've got it backwards: Turkey manifestly does NOT have free speech, so the government airing a program that makes false and derogatory claims about entire nations can't be defended on the grounds of free speech rights that government ignores.
4) "Turkeys terrorist sympathizing genocide denying junta" Really? You seem to be losing factual argument through sheer weight of hyperbole.

Perhaps it would be more difficult to maintain if "Kemalism" wasn't the governments official national policy (hence "military junta" ) or that government didn't disseminate propaganda against both Israel and Palestine (hence "terrorist sympathizing. " ) "Genocide denying" speaks for itself; as long as it's a crime to mention the Armenian Genocide in Turkey that's not hyperbole at all.
5) "We want to join the EU that criminalized Holocaust denial but jail people for saying we committed genocide!" - actually, Holocaust denial is not criminalised in the EU. Over the last 5-10 years, the Turkish courts have dismissed several cases where private citizens (and this is a point that you need to note, as it isn't the government bringing the cases) have attempted to have people prosecuted for referring to the genocide. You are somewhat behind the times.

European Union Framework Decision for Combating Racism and Xenophobia (2007)

The text establishes that the following intentional conduct will be punishable in all EU Member States:

-Publicly inciting to violence or hatred , even by dissemination or distribution of tracts, pictures or other material, directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin.

-Publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising

-crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined in the Statute of the International Criminal Court (Articles 6, 7 and directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin, and

- crimes defined by the Tribunal of Nuremberg (Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, London Agreement of 1945) directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin


Member States may choose to punish only conduct which is either carried out in a manner likely to disturb public order or which is threatening, abusive or insulting.

The reference to religion is intended to cover, at least, conduct which is a pretext for directing acts against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin.

Member States will ensure that these conducts are punishable by criminal penalties of a maximum of at least between 1 and 3 years of imprisonment.[49]


In other words, denying the Holocaust is a crime throughout the EU, punishable by 1-3 years imprisonment. I found the quote at Wikipedia, but the original source is linked.

As to genocide denial cases brought on a wholly private basis, first off it's a criminal, not civil, statute; when people are in prison for something you can't just shrug it off as the pet grievance of a few individuals. But here's a quick Wikipedia overview of some cases:
Another high profile case to result from this legislation involved the writer and journalist Perihan Magden, who was prosecuted for penning an article originally published in the December 26, 2005 issue of Yeni Aktuel, titled "Conscientious Objection is a Human Right".[12] The Turkish military filed a complaint against her in response.[13] In the trial, which took place on July 27, 2006, she was acquitted when the court ruled that her opinions were covered by the freedom of expression and were not a crime under the Turkish Penal Code.[14] If convicted she could have faced three years' imprisonment.

In July 2006 the Istanbul public prosecutor's office prepared an indictment alleging that the statements in the book Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman constituted a breach of the article.[15] The publisher and editors of the Turkish translation, as well as the translator, were brought to trial accordingly, but acquitted in December 2006.[16]

In 2006 Elif ?afak also faced charges of "insulting Turkishness" because of her latest novel, The Bastard of Istanbul.[3] The case was thrown out by the judge after a demand by the prosecutor for the case to be dropped.[17]

In 2006, the well-known Armenian-Turkish journalist Hrant Dink was prosecuted under the Article 301 for insulting Turkishness, and received a six month suspended sentence. He was subsequently assassinated by radical nationalists. Orhan Pamuk declared, "In a sense, we are all responsible for his death. However, at the very forefront of this responsibility are those who still defend article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code. Those who campaigned against him, those who portrayed this sibling of ours as an enemy of Turkey, those who painted him as a target, they are the most responsible in this."[1 Hrant Dink was posthumously acquitted of the charges on June 14, 2007, in a retrial ordered by the Court of Appeals.[19]

Publisher Rag?p Zarakolu is on trial under Article 301 as well as for “insulting the legacy of Atatürk” under Law 5816.[20]

In 2007, Arat Dink (Hrant Dink's son) and Serkis Seropyan were convicted to one-year suspended sentences under Article 301 for printing Dink's claims that the killings of Armenians in 1915 was a genocide.[21] (See Armenian Genocide.)

In 2008, Rahîm Er, a columnist of Turkiye daily newspaper was convicted under Article 301 for criticising the Court of Cassation of Turkey. Er was criticising the Court of Cassation because of the length of trials, its heavy backlog, and the hidden resistance to the establishment of regional courts of appeals in Turkey. He was charged with insulting an institution of the Republic of Turkey by chief public prosecutor's office in Bak?rköy. This prosecution was stroke out by the dismissal of Mehmet Ali ?ahin, the minister of justice.

So, the Turkish military is a private citizen, and, anyway, there's only been one (upheld) conviction and only one assassination due to this law, so, yeah, clearly "freedom is on the march" in Turkey.
Have I? I'm saying if a private citizen did it would still be libelous and inflammatory, but perhaps not deserving of censorship (a libel suit would still be very much on the table, IMHO. ) On the basis of that view, which I admit is just my opinion, a government organ doing it is just that much worse. It's in line with calling Germans "Huns" during the Great War, with the key differences that 1) Turkey isn't at war with either country and is nominally allied with one of them, and 2) this is 2010, not 1910.

You have, it seems, suddenly switched from calling for Government censorship of independent TV networks.
I have no problem with people taking the TV networks to court. I would hope they would be laughed out of it, for trying to sue over a fictional TV programme.

This appears one of those "based on a true story" scenarios where a writer can generalize from a few particular real events and extrapolate a wealth of inflammatory fiction.
Bottom line: A country that imprisons people in conditions infamous throughout the world for the great crime of calling genocide genocide didn't allow their state TV station to air this program for the sake of free speech. They have no problem with unreasonable censorship, they just didn't WANT to censor this, and that's a real problem, one in which I hope the EU can avoid becoming involved or even complicit.

Bottom line remains the same. If the international community allows repressive authoritarian regimes all the privileges of liberal democratic ones what's their incentive for change? The increasingly small fear their citizens will one day have superior firepower and organization? Because as much as popular revolution is celebrated in countries like mine, there I can't think of many revolutions against dictatorship that succeeded without the professional militarys support in the past half century. Freedom and democracy are NOT on the march throughout the world; countries that dispense with such inconveniences are growing in economic and other influence at a far greater rate than those who possess them, primarily due to the active assistance of the latter. Yes, the push for Turkeys membership in the EU despite their denial of genocide to the point of criminalizing mentions of it, despite the average voter forced to choose between putting military thugs or religious extremists while calling it "democracy" are just one example, but it's the example relevant in this thread. The problem is much bigger than that in this thread though, I concede.
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EU Legal Policy on Holocaust Denial
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no rape = racism? - 06/04/2010 06:56:03 PM 360 Views
And Turkey should be an EU member again because... why...? - 06/04/2010 11:51:05 PM 200 Views
Yeah, damn them for letting the media say what it likes... - 06/04/2010 11:57:37 PM 216 Views
"The drama, which was first broadcast on Turkey’s state television last October.... " - 07/04/2010 12:46:35 AM 383 Views
TRT is like the BBC and many other public broadcasting channels... - 07/04/2010 01:05:08 AM 319 Views
As I said, can you picture this on the BBC? - 07/04/2010 01:17:10 AM 414 Views
No but better to not censor than censor seems a good rule - 07/04/2010 10:03:52 AM 209 Views
Not when it's false, inflammatory and violent propaganda masquerading as "entertainment. " - 07/04/2010 11:10:41 AM 199 Views
Um, they co-funded and broadcast Rome? *NM* - 07/04/2010 11:15:33 AM 90 Views
Never seen it. - 07/04/2010 11:22:45 AM 203 Views
were you a medieval king, would you not censor blood libel ? - 07/04/2010 12:31:44 PM 212 Views
If I were a medieval king, I wouldn't know what television is - 07/04/2010 01:27:39 PM 213 Views
you are probably right. - 07/04/2010 08:49:17 PM 322 Views
As long as they don't criticize any nationalist politicians or the army. *NM* - 07/04/2010 02:00:19 AM 82 Views
Well yes, that is what happens when you have a country with a constant threat of an army coup - 07/04/2010 10:02:00 AM 208 Views
I could accept the latter on the condition of the former. - 13/04/2010 10:12:01 AM 312 Views
You might need to have another look at your definitions - 14/04/2010 11:34:01 AM 316 Views
It's hard for me to view a nation with a military government as "First World. " - 14/04/2010 01:29:33 PM 314 Views
Wouldn't Hollywood get sued constantly, then? - 14/04/2010 01:34:32 PM 274 Views
Maybe in the latter one. - 14/04/2010 01:39:49 PM 329 Views
You do know Oklahoma isn't a country, right? - 14/04/2010 09:51:21 PM 303 Views
I'm a Texan; yes, I do. - 15/04/2010 02:42:45 PM 320 Views
Fair point, I was forgetting that - 15/04/2010 03:07:25 PM 341 Views
I've been known to refer to OK as "North TX" but they don't like that. - 20/04/2010 01:42:21 PM 344 Views
Turkey shouldn't be in the EU. - 07/04/2010 01:23:31 AM 216 Views
For the most part I agree. - 07/04/2010 02:18:37 AM 388 Views
I gotta agree tactually - 07/04/2010 03:51:02 AM 333 Views
Tactually? Adam will be insanely jealous.... - 13/04/2010 10:04:39 AM 327 Views

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