Active Users:404 Time:17/09/2025 01:44:16 AM
All th Germans I have known have considered ß to be a letter. The Shrike Send a noteboard - 20/01/2018 11:01:40 PM

View original post
It existed in its earliest form in Old English. Every Old English letter had a name. If it didn't have a separate name it's not a separate letter. It's almost directly analogous to the Greek sigma, which in all positions other than word final looks like this: σ but in word-final positions looks like this: ς

Is the sigma at the end of words a different letter? No. In fact, in many scripts there would be no variant and it looked like this in all positions in lower case: c (exactly like our c or the Russian s). The same goes for the Old English long s, which is not consistently used in all texts or used with uniform placement in all texts.

We don't consider variant forms of sigma a separate letter and so we shouldn't consider the variant s a separate letter. For the record, the eszett isn't considered a separate letter, just a writing convention. Like the long s (and variant sigma) it doesn't have a majuscule form. All proper letters have majuscule forms.

That's a lot of arguments against it being a separate letter. To summarize:

  1. No Old English name, unlike all other Old English letters.
  2. No majuscule form, unlike all proper letters.
  3. Analogous to Greek sigma variant and German eszett, which are not separate letters

I think your view of this is worth debating. I don't know that your arguments have swayed me about what a letter is and isnt though. Why do you consider ß to not be a letter btw?

Reply to message
The Fascinating History of 10 Extra Letters the English Alphabet Used to Have - 18/01/2018 06:35:45 PM 1201 Views
I have to take issue with the & and the "long s" - 18/01/2018 07:28:09 PM 542 Views
Ok, let's define what a letter is. - 18/01/2018 11:25:22 PM 593 Views
Yes, the long "s" is just a variant. It didn't have a name in Old English. - 19/01/2018 03:39:51 PM 736 Views
I don't think not having a name in Old English matters here. - 19/01/2018 05:05:47 PM 840 Views
I think it does, quite definitively. - 20/01/2018 08:46:24 PM 581 Views
All th Germans I have known have considered ß to be a letter. - 20/01/2018 11:01:40 PM 634 Views
ß is a ligature - 21/01/2018 04:04:48 PM 547 Views
That article is even sloppier than the first - 20/01/2018 09:01:33 PM 535 Views
All letters were once "fake". - 20/01/2018 10:59:11 PM 617 Views
Isn't that kind of idealist - 21/01/2018 08:02:14 AM 583 Views
Realist perhaps - 22/01/2018 01:54:14 AM 545 Views
Pivots - 22/01/2018 03:43:56 AM 660 Views
Meanwhile - 22/01/2018 12:23:13 PM 502 Views
Olympics are grand aren't they? *NM* - 22/01/2018 05:23:56 PM 308 Views
Deutschland, Deutschland! - 22/01/2018 05:26:50 PM 447 Views
No, actually that's quite incorrect. - 21/01/2018 04:14:18 PM 554 Views
You've missed the point. - 22/01/2018 01:53:59 AM 578 Views
No, I'm trying to show the qualitative difference between the two events. - 22/01/2018 04:34:20 PM 479 Views
The letter J? *NM* - 22/01/2018 05:19:14 PM 361 Views
No, J is a lot like the long s. - 22/01/2018 07:23:01 PM 533 Views
Feels we are talking past each other. - 22/01/2018 07:52:53 PM 589 Views
You're wrong. - 23/01/2018 01:21:26 AM 631 Views
Agreed. Ligatures aren't letters. *NM* - 19/01/2018 06:13:43 AM 339 Views
Eh . . . the Ampersand is probably now considered a logogram rather than a ligature. - 19/01/2018 01:27:21 PM 535 Views
ſ is just a variant. *NM* - 19/01/2018 03:40:53 PM 385 Views
I enjoy this thread muchly...yet I will not participate besides saying - 19/01/2018 10:46:40 PM 523 Views
You're using sublime too often; it's losing its luster - 20/01/2018 12:15:10 AM 571 Views
Do I? (in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 12:46:35 AM 493 Views
(in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 03:18:04 PM 550 Views
Brilliant! *NM* - 20/01/2018 03:38:39 PM 308 Views
- 20/01/2018 11:20:11 PM 548 Views
*NM* - 23/01/2018 09:18:01 PM 315 Views
Is this payback for the irritating word, Umami? - 24/01/2018 07:25:56 AM 440 Views
Upapi? *NM* - 25/01/2018 08:41:14 PM 354 Views
Thank all gods everywhere they are gone. - 22/01/2018 12:23:34 PM 529 Views
Some other letters should go too. - 22/01/2018 01:12:31 PM 596 Views
How would you replace the ch sound? - 22/01/2018 04:15:04 PM 548 Views
I thought of removing C, as well. - 22/01/2018 06:16:20 PM 532 Views
The CH is a problem. - 22/01/2018 06:34:47 PM 452 Views
And calling people you don't like "fu king unts"? *NM* - 22/01/2018 07:25:29 PM 412 Views
Meanwhile if it were written as fuking kunts, no one would have any issues - 22/01/2018 07:54:41 PM 597 Views
I have an issue, kunts looks too much like nuts or knuts - 22/01/2018 08:09:52 PM 526 Views
Would you prefer a Knut? - 22/01/2018 10:55:09 PM 496 Views
Yes I like my internet memes and thus I do not want to be confused by that word sometimes directed - 23/01/2018 10:28:58 PM 474 Views
Yes, ask him - 24/01/2018 01:32:08 AM 502 Views
Totes I will ask him about Tot *NM* - 24/01/2018 09:49:45 PM 336 Views
Yes, about the meanings. Pronounced quite differently. - 25/01/2018 06:17:22 PM 607 Views
Scheisse. I did forget it. - 26/01/2018 05:24:21 PM 512 Views
You mean Scheiße? *NM* - 26/01/2018 06:49:26 PM 339 Views
No. I mean Scheisse. *NM* - 26/01/2018 07:15:21 PM 357 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2018 11:07:18 PM 409 Views
*NM* - 28/01/2018 02:15:03 AM 329 Views
all those k's.... - 22/01/2018 08:23:09 PM 482 Views
So . . . no Klondike bars or Kit Kats for you. - 22/01/2018 10:55:53 PM 582 Views
But it would look "fuking" stupid - 23/01/2018 01:30:15 AM 512 Views
All languages change - 23/01/2018 01:40:18 AM 492 Views
They change, but resistance is not futile. - 23/01/2018 02:10:17 AM 563 Views
Also, you're not talking about the language changing. You're talking about changing the language. - 23/01/2018 02:16:39 AM 576 Views
I am being a realist who understands that spellings change. Letters get dropped. Language evolves. - 23/01/2018 06:53:25 PM 603 Views
It is posts like this that remind me why you are my RAFO tree - 23/01/2018 10:29:53 PM 480 Views
Nope sadly he did not *NM* - 23/01/2018 10:30:09 PM 265 Views
What are you talking about here? - 24/01/2018 12:21:55 PM 531 Views
I am talking about Logograms - 24/01/2018 09:48:48 PM 519 Views
Evolution, not revolution - 23/01/2018 10:54:37 PM 631 Views

Reply to Message