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You're wrong. Tom Send a noteboard - 23/01/2018 01:21:26 AM

There is no uniform "j" sound. So saying "the J sound is not new" is wrong to begin with. The letter preceded the sound, actually. It was used in conjunction with vowel placement in handwritten texts to show that there was an "i" before another vowel because otherwise people might not see the "i" (especially in scripts where all the vowels were very small to save space). It was written in languages, like Latin and Italian, that have no distinct sound corresponding to "j" and which have no "j sound" as you call it. However, in French, the places where the "j" showed up often, due to the way French slurs most everything, elided the sounds in such a way that the sound that we now hear in French from "j" occurred naturally. This sound change happened distinct from the letter, but it happened where the letter showed up because the letter was so written when i preceded a vowel (which was also when the elision took place).

This change crossed the Channel and ended up in English. However, some other languages which still retain the use of "j" as separate from "i" nevertheless pronounce it as "y", its original value.

In other words, the symbol was used before the sound developed, and the sound developed for independent but related reasons.

The closer analogy to what you're arguing would be the distinction between u and v, where scribes were trying to show that the old Latin Vv had, by the late Imperial Period, ceased being pronounced as /u/ or, in certain contexts, /w/, but rather as /u/ and /v/. Even then, however, the two forms of the same letter (u and v) were used in ways different to our modern distinction - v was only written at the beginning of a word (much like many js), while u was written in any other position.

However, these were writing conventions that then ended up getting intertwined with shifts in language. The "ng" was just some guy's unilateral attempt at creating an unnecessary new letter. That hasn't worked at any point in history that I'm aware of.


Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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The Fascinating History of 10 Extra Letters the English Alphabet Used to Have - 18/01/2018 06:35:45 PM 1190 Views
I have to take issue with the & and the "long s" - 18/01/2018 07:28:09 PM 534 Views
Ok, let's define what a letter is. - 18/01/2018 11:25:22 PM 579 Views
Yes, the long "s" is just a variant. It didn't have a name in Old English. - 19/01/2018 03:39:51 PM 725 Views
I don't think not having a name in Old English matters here. - 19/01/2018 05:05:47 PM 830 Views
I think it does, quite definitively. - 20/01/2018 08:46:24 PM 564 Views
All th Germans I have known have considered ß to be a letter. - 20/01/2018 11:01:40 PM 609 Views
ß is a ligature - 21/01/2018 04:04:48 PM 534 Views
That article is even sloppier than the first - 20/01/2018 09:01:33 PM 522 Views
All letters were once "fake". - 20/01/2018 10:59:11 PM 607 Views
Isn't that kind of idealist - 21/01/2018 08:02:14 AM 573 Views
Realist perhaps - 22/01/2018 01:54:14 AM 529 Views
Pivots - 22/01/2018 03:43:56 AM 651 Views
Meanwhile - 22/01/2018 12:23:13 PM 485 Views
Olympics are grand aren't they? *NM* - 22/01/2018 05:23:56 PM 302 Views
Deutschland, Deutschland! - 22/01/2018 05:26:50 PM 440 Views
No, actually that's quite incorrect. - 21/01/2018 04:14:18 PM 534 Views
You've missed the point. - 22/01/2018 01:53:59 AM 568 Views
No, I'm trying to show the qualitative difference between the two events. - 22/01/2018 04:34:20 PM 467 Views
The letter J? *NM* - 22/01/2018 05:19:14 PM 354 Views
No, J is a lot like the long s. - 22/01/2018 07:23:01 PM 519 Views
Feels we are talking past each other. - 22/01/2018 07:52:53 PM 575 Views
You're wrong. - 23/01/2018 01:21:26 AM 618 Views
Agreed. Ligatures aren't letters. *NM* - 19/01/2018 06:13:43 AM 334 Views
Eh . . . the Ampersand is probably now considered a logogram rather than a ligature. - 19/01/2018 01:27:21 PM 523 Views
ſ is just a variant. *NM* - 19/01/2018 03:40:53 PM 379 Views
I enjoy this thread muchly...yet I will not participate besides saying - 19/01/2018 10:46:40 PM 509 Views
You're using sublime too often; it's losing its luster - 20/01/2018 12:15:10 AM 563 Views
Do I? (in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 12:46:35 AM 484 Views
(in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 03:18:04 PM 539 Views
Brilliant! *NM* - 20/01/2018 03:38:39 PM 302 Views
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*NM* - 23/01/2018 09:18:01 PM 311 Views
Is this payback for the irritating word, Umami? - 24/01/2018 07:25:56 AM 432 Views
Upapi? *NM* - 25/01/2018 08:41:14 PM 349 Views
Thank all gods everywhere they are gone. - 22/01/2018 12:23:34 PM 515 Views
Some other letters should go too. - 22/01/2018 01:12:31 PM 588 Views
How would you replace the ch sound? - 22/01/2018 04:15:04 PM 533 Views
I thought of removing C, as well. - 22/01/2018 06:16:20 PM 521 Views
The CH is a problem. - 22/01/2018 06:34:47 PM 434 Views
And calling people you don't like "fu king unts"? *NM* - 22/01/2018 07:25:29 PM 403 Views
Meanwhile if it were written as fuking kunts, no one would have any issues - 22/01/2018 07:54:41 PM 591 Views
I have an issue, kunts looks too much like nuts or knuts - 22/01/2018 08:09:52 PM 518 Views
Would you prefer a Knut? - 22/01/2018 10:55:09 PM 485 Views
Yes I like my internet memes and thus I do not want to be confused by that word sometimes directed - 23/01/2018 10:28:58 PM 456 Views
Yes, ask him - 24/01/2018 01:32:08 AM 489 Views
Totes I will ask him about Tot *NM* - 24/01/2018 09:49:45 PM 333 Views
Yes, about the meanings. Pronounced quite differently. - 25/01/2018 06:17:22 PM 597 Views
Scheisse. I did forget it. - 26/01/2018 05:24:21 PM 499 Views
You mean Scheiße? *NM* - 26/01/2018 06:49:26 PM 324 Views
No. I mean Scheisse. *NM* - 26/01/2018 07:15:21 PM 351 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2018 11:07:18 PM 401 Views
*NM* - 28/01/2018 02:15:03 AM 323 Views
all those k's.... - 22/01/2018 08:23:09 PM 475 Views
So . . . no Klondike bars or Kit Kats for you. - 22/01/2018 10:55:53 PM 568 Views
But it would look "fuking" stupid - 23/01/2018 01:30:15 AM 502 Views
All languages change - 23/01/2018 01:40:18 AM 477 Views
They change, but resistance is not futile. - 23/01/2018 02:10:17 AM 547 Views
Also, you're not talking about the language changing. You're talking about changing the language. - 23/01/2018 02:16:39 AM 562 Views
I am being a realist who understands that spellings change. Letters get dropped. Language evolves. - 23/01/2018 06:53:25 PM 593 Views
It is posts like this that remind me why you are my RAFO tree - 23/01/2018 10:29:53 PM 472 Views
Nope sadly he did not *NM* - 23/01/2018 10:30:09 PM 259 Views
What are you talking about here? - 24/01/2018 12:21:55 PM 516 Views
I am talking about Logograms - 24/01/2018 09:48:48 PM 501 Views
Evolution, not revolution - 23/01/2018 10:54:37 PM 623 Views

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