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You're wrong. Tom Send a noteboard - 23/01/2018 01:21:26 AM

There is no uniform "j" sound. So saying "the J sound is not new" is wrong to begin with. The letter preceded the sound, actually. It was used in conjunction with vowel placement in handwritten texts to show that there was an "i" before another vowel because otherwise people might not see the "i" (especially in scripts where all the vowels were very small to save space). It was written in languages, like Latin and Italian, that have no distinct sound corresponding to "j" and which have no "j sound" as you call it. However, in French, the places where the "j" showed up often, due to the way French slurs most everything, elided the sounds in such a way that the sound that we now hear in French from "j" occurred naturally. This sound change happened distinct from the letter, but it happened where the letter showed up because the letter was so written when i preceded a vowel (which was also when the elision took place).

This change crossed the Channel and ended up in English. However, some other languages which still retain the use of "j" as separate from "i" nevertheless pronounce it as "y", its original value.

In other words, the symbol was used before the sound developed, and the sound developed for independent but related reasons.

The closer analogy to what you're arguing would be the distinction between u and v, where scribes were trying to show that the old Latin Vv had, by the late Imperial Period, ceased being pronounced as /u/ or, in certain contexts, /w/, but rather as /u/ and /v/. Even then, however, the two forms of the same letter (u and v) were used in ways different to our modern distinction - v was only written at the beginning of a word (much like many js), while u was written in any other position.

However, these were writing conventions that then ended up getting intertwined with shifts in language. The "ng" was just some guy's unilateral attempt at creating an unnecessary new letter. That hasn't worked at any point in history that I'm aware of.


Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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The Fascinating History of 10 Extra Letters the English Alphabet Used to Have - 18/01/2018 06:35:45 PM 1269 Views
I have to take issue with the & and the "long s" - 18/01/2018 07:28:09 PM 594 Views
Ok, let's define what a letter is. - 18/01/2018 11:25:22 PM 649 Views
Yes, the long "s" is just a variant. It didn't have a name in Old English. - 19/01/2018 03:39:51 PM 790 Views
I don't think not having a name in Old English matters here. - 19/01/2018 05:05:47 PM 902 Views
I think it does, quite definitively. - 20/01/2018 08:46:24 PM 646 Views
All th Germans I have known have considered ß to be a letter. - 20/01/2018 11:01:40 PM 714 Views
ß is a ligature - 21/01/2018 04:04:48 PM 599 Views
That article is even sloppier than the first - 20/01/2018 09:01:33 PM 599 Views
All letters were once "fake". - 20/01/2018 10:59:11 PM 693 Views
Isn't that kind of idealist - 21/01/2018 08:02:14 AM 630 Views
Realist perhaps - 22/01/2018 01:54:14 AM 600 Views
Pivots - 22/01/2018 03:43:56 AM 714 Views
Meanwhile - 22/01/2018 12:23:13 PM 561 Views
Olympics are grand aren't they? *NM* - 22/01/2018 05:23:56 PM 328 Views
Deutschland, Deutschland! - 22/01/2018 05:26:50 PM 493 Views
No, actually that's quite incorrect. - 21/01/2018 04:14:18 PM 633 Views
You've missed the point. - 22/01/2018 01:53:59 AM 651 Views
No, I'm trying to show the qualitative difference between the two events. - 22/01/2018 04:34:20 PM 531 Views
The letter J? *NM* - 22/01/2018 05:19:14 PM 384 Views
No, J is a lot like the long s. - 22/01/2018 07:23:01 PM 584 Views
Feels we are talking past each other. - 22/01/2018 07:52:53 PM 670 Views
You're wrong. - 23/01/2018 01:21:26 AM 702 Views
Agreed. Ligatures aren't letters. *NM* - 19/01/2018 06:13:43 AM 357 Views
Eh . . . the Ampersand is probably now considered a logogram rather than a ligature. - 19/01/2018 01:27:21 PM 583 Views
ſ is just a variant. *NM* - 19/01/2018 03:40:53 PM 406 Views
I enjoy this thread muchly...yet I will not participate besides saying - 19/01/2018 10:46:40 PM 590 Views
You're using sublime too often; it's losing its luster - 20/01/2018 12:15:10 AM 624 Views
Do I? (in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 12:46:35 AM 591 Views
(in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 03:18:04 PM 614 Views
Brilliant! *NM* - 20/01/2018 03:38:39 PM 347 Views
- 20/01/2018 11:20:11 PM 601 Views
*NM* - 23/01/2018 09:18:01 PM 338 Views
Is this payback for the irritating word, Umami? - 24/01/2018 07:25:56 AM 508 Views
Upapi? *NM* - 25/01/2018 08:41:14 PM 374 Views
Thank all gods everywhere they are gone. - 22/01/2018 12:23:34 PM 592 Views
Some other letters should go too. - 22/01/2018 01:12:31 PM 654 Views
How would you replace the ch sound? - 22/01/2018 04:15:04 PM 601 Views
I thought of removing C, as well. - 22/01/2018 06:16:20 PM 582 Views
The CH is a problem. - 22/01/2018 06:34:47 PM 504 Views
And calling people you don't like "fu king unts"? *NM* - 22/01/2018 07:25:29 PM 443 Views
Meanwhile if it were written as fuking kunts, no one would have any issues - 22/01/2018 07:54:41 PM 666 Views
I have an issue, kunts looks too much like nuts or knuts - 22/01/2018 08:09:52 PM 589 Views
Would you prefer a Knut? - 22/01/2018 10:55:09 PM 552 Views
Yes I like my internet memes and thus I do not want to be confused by that word sometimes directed - 23/01/2018 10:28:58 PM 541 Views
Yes, ask him - 24/01/2018 01:32:08 AM 558 Views
Totes I will ask him about Tot *NM* - 24/01/2018 09:49:45 PM 372 Views
Yes, about the meanings. Pronounced quite differently. - 25/01/2018 06:17:22 PM 661 Views
Scheisse. I did forget it. - 26/01/2018 05:24:21 PM 561 Views
You mean Scheiße? *NM* - 26/01/2018 06:49:26 PM 365 Views
No. I mean Scheisse. *NM* - 26/01/2018 07:15:21 PM 377 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2018 11:07:18 PM 428 Views
*NM* - 28/01/2018 02:15:03 AM 355 Views
all those k's.... - 22/01/2018 08:23:09 PM 535 Views
So . . . no Klondike bars or Kit Kats for you. - 22/01/2018 10:55:53 PM 641 Views
But it would look "fuking" stupid - 23/01/2018 01:30:15 AM 570 Views
All languages change - 23/01/2018 01:40:18 AM 541 Views
They change, but resistance is not futile. - 23/01/2018 02:10:17 AM 612 Views
Also, you're not talking about the language changing. You're talking about changing the language. - 23/01/2018 02:16:39 AM 629 Views
I am being a realist who understands that spellings change. Letters get dropped. Language evolves. - 23/01/2018 06:53:25 PM 686 Views
It is posts like this that remind me why you are my RAFO tree - 23/01/2018 10:29:53 PM 533 Views
Nope sadly he did not *NM* - 23/01/2018 10:30:09 PM 294 Views
What are you talking about here? - 24/01/2018 12:21:55 PM 581 Views
I am talking about Logograms - 24/01/2018 09:48:48 PM 578 Views
Evolution, not revolution - 23/01/2018 10:54:37 PM 684 Views

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