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Re: I actually thought this was done reasonably well, by the standards of the show. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 09/01/2022 10:24:59 PM


I liked it on the whole - the shock reveal of her being a Darkfriend worked well for me, at least.

They killed the shock for me, by putting so much of a spotlight on her. The only options were revealing she's a Darkfriend, or expecting us to be upset by her death at the hands of Rand's & Mat's pursuers.
And in a show that already had way too little focus on the overarching plot to the extent that they didn't even bother having Moiraine give any remotely plausible reason for leading them to the Eye of the World, and with only the one Ba'alzamon dream appearance, definitely a scene like this was much needed, as they clearly weren't going to take the time to have several smaller scenes like in the books.

You have a good point, but needing a scene as a bandage for missing stuff as a result of your shitty choices isn't much of an excuse. That's the problem with so much original material, it's purpose is dubious and forces this sort of writing economy. Keeping Ba'alzamon dream appearances over fire-face CGI jump scares or multiple discussions of feelings and relationships (why do they think they need MORE conversations with Tinkers than we get on the page, but FEWER confrontations with the enemy, whether Ba'alzamon, Myrddraal or Darkfriends? )

Typing mistake in the first sentence, you mean in the show.

Thanks.
I figured this was one of the cases of him subconsciously channeling - didn't this moment also get a quick reference later in the season when they reveal he can channel?

Yep.
I just watched it again - not too terrible as exposition goes, though I doubt casual viewers would have remembered the details several episodes later when they become relevant.
Me, either. You know what might make that stick? Repetition through multiple encounters.

I'd agree after rewatching that some of this, especially outside when they both stand there while she's waving the sword and talking about Ishamael, seems to be based on the idea of a sword being basically equivalent to a gun - and moreover, she has already admitted that she doesn't want to kill them, but hand them over to the Dark One alive. Then again, Rand and Mat aren't exactly supposed to be trained fighters at this point, nor to have a warrior mentality, and it's plausible that it doesn't even occur to them to close on her and try to take the sword away, with her unwilling to use lethal force to prevent that.

But, that's probably why Jordan did not have them face off with a pseudo-swordswoman, instead having a quick surprise attack they could handle with a stroke of apparent luck, or in hindsight, dagger-induced paranoia.
But yeah, for a plan prepared in advance, it's pretty thin - she didn't count on Rand breaking through the door, but she did count on holding both Rand and Mat at bay for however many hours it would've taken for the Fade to arrive and take over. Even if Rand had been amenable to her sexual advances, things would still have gotten awkward fast once Mat arrived.
It's an idiot confrontation - one that requires everyone to be stupid to get the outcome the writers want.

Yeah, when it comes to them failing to speculate, that's bad but far from the most implausible one...

Not the failing to speculate, just that her words didn't have much effect, so why build up a whole scene to give weight to them? Rashid The Dark One telling them stuff in multiple episodes in dreams could be more efficient, since you don't need to constantly introduce new characters, or even set up scenes much, since you can jump into a dream with no set up. He could do conversations with each "candidate" to reinforce their potential, instead of laboriously having to seed clues about each character, Nynaeve glowing like the sun, Perrin's eyes, Mat's "madness", Egwene's indestructibility... he could even hint about Rand getting through the door, suggesting Abdul the Dark One had somehow opened the door for him. with the implication that Rand et al are vessels he can act through without their awareness or consent.
how about Rand turning out to have known about the adoption since the night of the Trolloc attack, yet nobody ever putting the pieces together about his birth? The whole 'secret Dragon' thing is a failure and seriously hindered the overall storytelling - regardless of what motivations they may or may not have had for it.

But it could have been handled better, and I think multiple encounters with Darkfriends would have been better in that regard. Have different Darkfriends each thinking they are on the track of the right targets. Have a Tinker Darkfriend get caught whispering to a raven, so they have to flee the caravan and run into the Whitecloak's arms. Have one of Logain's followers suddenly recognize Nynaeve and try to grab her and drag her away from the battlefield, muttering something about "forget killing the caged Dragon, I'll turn in the real thing," and she can show her gumption in escaping, or Lan can be wounded saving her so her Healing blast is more about responsibility than a crush.

I definitely think it's better to have this encounter than not to have it at all - yes, it would've been better if they had been more consistent about the Darkfriend threat and Ishamael's plotting, but better this than nothing. All in all, the whole sequence still serves a fair number of purposes for the show (which is more than one can say about all the funeral scenes...): establishing the Darkfriend threat
But there seems to be no payoff to the Darkfriend threat.
and the notion, which comes later and more subtly in the books, of turning the Dragon rather than killing him;
Much better served in conversations with Ba'alzamon, or knowledgeable people talking about it. Maybe a debate between Liandrin and Moiraine, where the Red position is more of a "gentle the Dragon to prevent his turning to the Dark One." That might improve on the book characters' groundless fears of the Reds panicking and gentling Rand.
an opportunity for Rand to channel
A vastly inferior opportunity to what the equivalent scene in the books gave.
and to learn a valuable lesson about not being too trusting;
But the show's position thus far has been to depict Rand as an asshole for not trusting Moiraine more. And teaching him to be more suspicious of people is a bad lesson for Rand to learn, thematically speaking. He was never too trusting in the books, but there were generally payoffs to him trying to treat people decently. I.e. Ingtar, who has been cast for season 2, so that's going to be a thing.
Thom turning out to be more dangerous than he seemed at first sight;
Did they need this, when they utterly failed to establish the Myrddraal's danger, and Thom will only ever encounter on screen a doomed farm family after killing Dana?
a reference to the show having updated Randland's societal views on homosexuality;
Was this either necessary or served? IMO the book handled it fine, the people who had a problem with it wanted more pandering and all Dana did was treat it like a joke, which doesn't really service that. The way to do it is not by having characters commenting on how homosexuality is fine with them, but by showing homosexual characters that no one noticed, which the show almost did properly with Alanna's warders, and then screwed up with the discussion of the implications if she added Stepin to the crew. Just imagine the dialogue with homosexual characters reacting to heterosexuality as in Rand & Dana's talk or Stepin's final chat with Lan. "Oh, well. I'm going to be mystically linked to a couple of women and end up in a sexual relationship with them, even though I'm gay and am mourning the loss of a friend and partner."
continuing Rand and Mat's increasingly difficult relationship under influence of the dagger; and so on. Obviously some of those you would probably not think were necessary at all, but given the choices they've made, they were important boxes to check.

Given the choices they made is pretty damning anyway, since the same people necessitated those boxes by making those choices.

In fairness, Mat has the Shadar Logoth dagger affecting him - and given that everything needs to be sped up from the books, that also goes for the effects of the dagger. I don't really have a problem with Rand and Mat's relationship becoming increasingly strained here - but it would've been nice if it had been established more, earlier on, how they interacted normally. Like with more time spent in Emond's Field, prior to the Trolloc attack.

I think that's possibly a flaw Jordan fell into as well, given that a lot of people seem to think the first book or two did not do enough to get them invested in Mat, and he did not emerge as a fan favorite until Book 3. But for people so bound and determined to fix the series, you'd think they'd have been all over that, instead of the nonsense with is horrible family, which, BTW, they clearly did not think through any more than they did the idea to give Perrin a wife and friendly-axe her at the outset. Supposedly his "selfish" inclinations are redeemed by the implication that his primary concern is getting home to take care of his sisters, but then you have to ask why he doesn't actually go home. If he's being held back by the dagger from going into the Ways, that's Moiraine's fuckup. They didn't think through what a commitment to their change entails. It's like selecting a wife because she's got a great rack at 21, without thinking about how living with her over the next 70 years is going to be, when that initial attraction no longer applicable for most of that time. Perrin's dead wife and Mat's dependent sisters ARE really big deals, but they are not things you can get rid of when it's no longer convenient or easy or it demands the characters act in ways that don't serve your story.
But I agree that, even though the characters have supposedly had their ages increased, they aren't generally shown to have the competence in various things that even their younger selves in the books did have - one of several ways in which they feel more like 21st century young adults from our world and less like young adults from the sort-of-medieval setting of the books. I suppose that's a common Hollywood trick to increase the appeal of movies/shows for a wider audience, despite annoying history buffs or people who are really looking for more authenticity.

It's like Game of Thrones, wanting to give Robb Stark a love story. A 16 year old jumping into bed with a girl his age because of hormones and emotions, regardless of the political implications is not only more understandable, but pretty much par for the course. As is the idealism that would motivate him to rectify the situation as he did. But for a man in his 20s (the actor was 27), who has been raised to hold a position of power and trained in the realities and necessities since childhood, to blow off political arrangements because of his longer-developing romance is criminally, almost unforgivably stupid.



I'm not bothered by the more 'woke' aspects of the show except when they actually harm the overall story, like their choice to pretend the Dragon could be any of the four, or even any of the five, or when they are handled so clumsily that they backfire, like Nynaeve's and Egwene's respective ludicrous Healing feats. In the context of this particular post, though, I don't see it being an issue anywhere.

It's the same pattern of poorly thought-out choices. It's not that I object to the content as the motivation, or rather the fact of a motivation. It's exactly the same as Christianizing the series, which has plenty in there for Christians to appreciate as it is, but no, we have to make it EVEN MORE Christian and overtly so. We don't have the patience to play out the whole story, so people can see the reality of the setting and story with some perspective, we have to get the message across in episode 1. The bible-thumpers are too lazy, impatient or zealous to wait to see the big picture, they want their God fix in episode one, so we have to spend most of our efforts in Emond's Field on Egwene's confirmation and the celebration thereof, and how impressed all the people are that she's taken this step on her faith journey. In the book Egwene getting her brain was just "I'm an adult now and it's time for some choices about my life," whereas there isn't much point to the womanhood stuff aside from Egwene porn. Like, it is literally only there for fans of Egwene to enjoy watching her one the screen, like a slice-of-life fan fiction story.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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