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Re: I actually thought this was done reasonably well, by the standards of the show. Legolas Send a noteboard - 10/01/2022 09:46:42 PM

View original postYou have a good point, but needing a scene as a bandage for missing stuff as a result of your shitty choices isn't much of an excuse. That's the problem with so much original material, it's purpose is dubious and forces this sort of writing economy. Keeping Ba'alzamon dream appearances over fire-face CGI jump scares or multiple discussions of feelings and relationships (why do they think they need MORE conversations with Tinkers than we get on the page, but FEWER confrontations with the enemy, whether Ba'alzamon, Myrddraal or Darkfriends? )

For sure, they should've had more than this one scene - that starts with having more episodes, but obviously, yeah, there's a bunch of stuff they could've cut to make room in the episodes they had.
View original post Me, either. You know what might make that stick? Repetition through multiple encounters.

True.
View original postBut, that's probably why Jordan did not have them face off with a pseudo-swordswoman, instead having a quick surprise attack they could handle with a stroke of apparent luck, or in hindsight, dagger-induced paranoia.

More realistic than this extended plan with so many holes relying on her holding her own against two guys for a longer period, yeah.
View original postIt's an idiot confrontation - one that requires everyone to be stupid to get the outcome the writers want.

As so often on TV or in movies, sadly...
View original postNot the failing to speculate, just that her words didn't have much effect, so why build up a whole scene to give weight to them? Rashid The Dark One telling them stuff in multiple episodes in dreams could be more efficient, since you don't need to constantly introduce new characters, or even set up scenes much, since you can jump into a dream with no set up. He could do conversations with each "candidate" to reinforce their potential, instead of laboriously having to seed clues about each character, Nynaeve glowing like the sun, Perrin's eyes, Mat's "madness", Egwene's indestructibility... he could even hint about Rand getting through the door, suggesting Abdul the Dark One had somehow opened the door for him. with the implication that Rand et al are vessels he can act through without their awareness or consent.

So out of curiosity, what point exactly are you making with all the Arabic names? Yes, I noticed the actor playing Ishamael is Middle Eastern.

Otherwise, I agree, we definitely needed more dream scenes - and the one that we did have needed to be better.


View original postBut it could have been handled better, and I think multiple encounters with Darkfriends would have been better in that regard. Have different Darkfriends each thinking they are on the track of the right targets. Have a Tinker Darkfriend get caught whispering to a raven, so they have to flee the caravan and run into the Whitecloak's arms. Have one of Logain's followers suddenly recognize Nynaeve and try to grab her and drag her away from the battlefield, muttering something about "forget killing the caged Dragon, I'll turn in the real thing," and she can show her gumption in escaping, or Lan can be wounded saving her so her Healing blast is more about responsibility than a crush.

Interesting. Yeah, good point, that way at least their idea would've had some more use.
View original postMuch better served in conversations with Ba'alzamon, or knowledgeable people talking about it. Maybe a debate between Liandrin and Moiraine, where the Red position is more of a "gentle the Dragon to prevent his turning to the Dark One." That might improve on the book characters' groundless fears of the Reds panicking and gentling Rand.

One of the more memorable Ishamael/Moridin scenes in the book series, for me, is the one where he's talking about the Fisher King and that chess/go/etc. like game in which one can win by converting one's opponent king piece, or something along those lines. It's surely not the first time that the topic comes up, but somehow, at least as I recall it, the first time I started to realize that turning him is the main plan, not just a sideshow, and that most of the other Forsaken are just distractions. But in the show, I guess we'll take what we can get. I liked that they put that here, but as you said above, without following up on it until episode eight, surely most people would've forgotten all about it. Besides, since the series established little or nothing about who the Dark One is, what he really wants, and doesn't even include any Forsaken other than Ishamael, that realization carries little weight anyway.



View original postBut the show's position thus far has been to depict Rand as an asshole for not trusting Moiraine more. And teaching him to be more suspicious of people is a bad lesson for Rand to learn, thematically speaking. He was never too trusting in the books, but there were generally payoffs to him trying to treat people decently. I.e. Ingtar, who has been cast for season 2, so that's going to be a thing.

Fair. I guess I mean that Rand in the show has a certain kind of innocence about him, which he needs to lose along the way - kinda goes with the part about feeling more like a modern teenager than a quasi-medieval farmer, who might be ignorant about plenty of things but probably more realistic overall.
View original postDid they need this, when they utterly failed to establish the Myrddraal's danger, and Thom will only ever encounter on screen a doomed farm family after killing Dana?

Well, you don't think they're done with Thom, do you? Though yes, they could've done a better job with the Myrddraal for sure.
View original postWas this either necessary or served? IMO the book handled it fine, the people who had a problem with it wanted more pandering and all Dana did was treat it like a joke, which doesn't really service that. The way to do it is not by having characters commenting on how homosexuality is fine with them, but by showing homosexual characters that no one noticed, which the show almost did properly with Alanna's warders, and then screwed up with the discussion of the implications if she added Stepin to the crew. Just imagine the dialogue with homosexual characters reacting to heterosexuality as in Rand & Dana's talk or Stepin's final chat with Lan. "Oh, well. I'm going to be mystically linked to a couple of women and end up in a sexual relationship with them, even though I'm gay and am mourning the loss of a friend and partner."

You would of course think that the book handled it fine. Wasn't expecting you to agree on the need for this. But since you mention it, yeah, I thought the joking about the sexual implications of Stepin becoming one of Alanna's warders was in pretty poor taste, too.
View original postGiven the choices they made is pretty damning anyway, since the same people necessitated those boxes by making those choices.

Certainly. With better choices made on the overall structure of the season and the major changes to the book plot, they'd also have ended up doing better on the small stuff. Some of those choices, notably the eight episodes rather than ten or even more, were apparently imposed on Judkins and the writers from their management - and I've heard theories, which seem plausible, that the last two episodes would have been not quite as bad if Covid hadn't thrown up a bunch of additional obstacles (like the actor playing Mat not returning after the Covid-imposed break in filming after episode six, hence the forced rewrite of his storyline).

Of course, when reviewing the series it doesn't really matter whether a given issue is finally Judkins' responsibility or that of his bosses or just force majeure, but I guess I like to take mitigating factors into account, especially since they suggest that they might do better in future seasons with fewer such restrictions. Somewhat better - this show is never going to become really great television...


View original postI think that's possibly a flaw Jordan fell into as well, given that a lot of people seem to think the first book or two did not do enough to get them invested in Mat, and he did not emerge as a fan favorite until Book 3. But for people so bound and determined to fix the series, you'd think they'd have been all over that, instead of the nonsense with is horrible family, which, BTW, they clearly did not think through any more than they did the idea to give Perrin a wife and friendly-axe her at the outset. Supposedly his "selfish" inclinations are redeemed by the implication that his primary concern is getting home to take care of his sisters, but then you have to ask why he doesn't actually go home. If he's being held back by the dagger from going into the Ways, that's Moiraine's fuckup. They didn't think through what a commitment to their change entails. It's like selecting a wife because she's got a great rack at 21, without thinking about how living with her over the next 70 years is going to be, when that initial attraction no longer applicable for most of that time. Perrin's dead wife and Mat's dependent sisters ARE really big deals, but they are not things you can get rid of when it's no longer convenient or easy or it demands the characters act in ways that don't serve your story.

Agreed. Brandon Sanderson made much the same point in his comments about the first episode - that the Perrin fridging thing was not only an offensive and lazy cliche, but that it really required a long, complex emotional journey for him afterwards to process that, which it was never very likely that the writers would bother to give him, and indeed they haven't. And yeah, Mat's relationship with his family is likely to fall along the wayside in the same way.
View original postIt's like Game of Thrones, wanting to give Robb Stark a love story. A 16 year old jumping into bed with a girl his age because of hormones and emotions, regardless of the political implications is not only more understandable, but pretty much par for the course. As is the idealism that would motivate him to rectify the situation as he did. But for a man in his 20s (the actor was 27), who has been raised to hold a position of power and trained in the realities and necessities since childhood, to blow off political arrangements because of his longer-developing romance is criminally, almost unforgivably stupid.

I'm not sure, despite the actor's age, that GoT meant to age Robb that much? Bump him up to 18 maybe, but not 'in his 20s' surely? Though from what I recall, I didn't much like GoT's take on that whole thing, either.
View original postIt's the same pattern of poorly thought-out choices. It's not that I object to the content as the motivation, or rather the fact of a motivation. It's exactly the same as Christianizing the series, which has plenty in there for Christians to appreciate as it is, but no, we have to make it EVEN MORE Christian and overtly so. We don't have the patience to play out the whole story, so people can see the reality of the setting and story with some perspective, we have to get the message across in episode 1. The bible-thumpers are too lazy, impatient or zealous to wait to see the big picture, they want their God fix in episode one, so we have to spend most of our efforts in Emond's Field on Egwene's confirmation and the celebration thereof, and how impressed all the people are that she's taken this step on her faith journey. In the book Egwene getting her brain was just "I'm an adult now and it's time for some choices about my life," whereas there isn't much point to the womanhood stuff aside from Egwene porn. Like, it is literally only there for fans of Egwene to enjoy watching her one the screen, like a slice-of-life fan fiction story.

Fair enough.
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