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Re: Sidebar on why I am tending to favor Smokeguy / MIB / Esau, whatever you call him Timthetrolloc Send a noteboard - 30/03/2010 01:52:52 AM
On the whole, I am leaning for firmly than ever towards sympathy for SmokeLocke. I have heard other people claim that Jacob and Smokeguy represent a struggle between free will and destiny, but if that is even remotely true, Smokeguy is the good one. He and his actions and words seem far more resonant with free will, and it is always Jacob and his disciples and favorites who blather on about destiny. His community of people, which according to him, has been established to prove his ideas about the potential goodness of humanity, generally behaves like obnoxious dicks whose deaths are wholly unsympathetic. I cannot recall offhand a single case where an Other was killed in an unjustifiable situation by an outsider!


I agree completely. Why were they so violent and unhospitable to all outsiders? Do they feel that threatened by outsiders that they are militant to all of them? I can see them protecting themselves but they go way beyond that with the kidnappings and straight murders that they commit. I can say I never saw one of the others die that I was sympathetic to them in any way.

It was, ironically, Jacob's articulation of Smokeguy's worldview that took me closest to rooting for him, because it is the closest to reality. The show only sounds silly when they try to bring religion or god or mysticism into it, so Hurley's final, dramatically scored warning to Richard is hard to take seriously, but one way or another, leaving out ideas of sin and redemption and absolution, Smokeguy is absolutely right about the nature of humanity. (BTW, I wish they would stop trying to present the show's ethos as Roman Catholic doctrine, or else stop misrepresenting RC doctrine - no priest would have said to Richard what he did in his cell, nor would any reasonably informed Catholic accept the insane pronouncements of Fr. Yemi's henchwoman in Africa about his church or Eko being cursed by the violence)


I agree about the priest but I had an idea about that. That Idea is that the priest was an Other or Hostile or whatever you want to call em. He was Jacob's pawn. Thats why he said what he did to Richard. To get him to the island. Though it was the captain who picked him I think the priest played a role in getting him to the island or maybe he was just that doctors lover or friend and hated richard for killing him.

Now it may be that the Lost writers feel differently, and are attempting to tell a story that denies that position and demonstrates the goodness or whatever in their characters, but the way it is working out, I don't think so. The contemporary writer and economist, Thomas Sowell, claimed in one of his books that the reason why people who oppose each other on a political issue tend to oppose each other on most or all issues, no matter how seemingly unrelated, boils down to a clash of two outlooks on human nature. The unconstrained outlook holds that humans are capable of almost anything and are infinitely perfectable, and that humanity's problems can be solved with enough effort - that we can do anything if we can just acquire the means, and getting the means is within our ability as well. People are basically good, and if you give them a chance, they will reach out for the best and so on. The constrained outlook, on the other hand, holds that people are essentially corrupt or selfish in general, and therefore must not be allowed to have power over each other, for they will surely misuse that power. This was the basis of the classical liberals, like John Locke and Edmund Burke (both of whom, of course, were the namesakes of characters on the show), the latter of whom is especially cited by Sowell as an exemplar of the constrained view of humanity. In modern political/religious terms, Ann Coulter expressed her (presumably unwitting) support for the constrained view by claiming that conservative/Christians (she doesn't seem to grasp that the two don't necessarily go together) understand that man is a fallen creature, while according to her, (contemporary)liberals (i.e. progressives) believe that they can be like gods and fix/create/improve the world or humanity.


Additionally, Frank Herbert said in one of the Dune novels, that beneath the surface of a liberal, you get an aristocrat - someone who thinks he knows what is best for others, and tries to make things conform to that ideal. As far as I can see, that is exactly what Jacob has going on here - the Others, if we are to believe his statement to Richard, are his attempts to build a perfect community of do-gooders. Though we never actually see them DOING anything that would seem to count as a mission or goal, their superior attitude, their claims of moral supremacy, their condescension towards outsiders, all smack of a group who thinks that they are better than everyone, in a kind of Gnostic worldview. Even Juliet seems to confirm this when she tells Sawyer that they all learn Latin because it is the language of the enlightened, or something to that effect.

All in all, I have to say that Jacob's efforts at proving one position are actually apparently having the reverse outcome, and without some hard and fast reasons (not mystic blather and parabels) why things need to be Jacob's way, I see no reason why Smokelocke, or at least Sawyer (whose agenda is being best helped by Smokelocke), doesn't have the right of it.


He might have the right of it but we also see that the MIB seems to be hungry to get off the island for some reason. And he is willing to kill alot of people to do it. The mass murder at the temple was just sickening. And look at what he did to Sayid! Sayid doesn't care about anyone except himself now and that is not who he was as a character at all leading up to his resurection in the temple. He was committed to other people and cared deeply for them. He was also a huge help to everyone on the island after the crash. His actions never showed him to be evil just that he might have served evil in Iraq.

Smokelocke might have the right of how people are but if he gets off the island then everyone on the world better watch out cause he is gonna kill enslave anyone and everyone who doesn't do his bidding. Can he even be killed? If he can why has he been trapped on the island so long?

Jacob might be wrong about people. We see how wrong he was about Ben. But even then he seems to care about people in general and life. Smokelocke doesn't unless they can serve him. Jacobs followers might be terrible and Ruthless but what is Jacob supposed to do about it? Kill them all? That would be as bad as what Smokelocke does. Jacob seems to deal in grays while Smokelocke seems to deal in black or white. Death or be my slave, or serve me. Jacob takes people as they are and trusts that there inner good nature will serve him. This doesn't always work out because people are real assholes sometimes. I think everyone can attest to that but you have to look at the other side of the coin, people can be really helpful and kind as well and do lots of good. I think Jacob is the one with the right outlook.
This message last edited by Timthetrolloc on 30/03/2010 at 02:11:26 AM
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