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Re: Sidebar on why I am tending to favor Smokeguy / MIB / Esau, whatever you call him Timthetrolloc Send a noteboard - 30/03/2010 09:10:27 PM
I agree completely. Why were they so violent and unhospitable to all outsiders? Do they feel that threatened by outsiders that they are militant to all of them? I can see them protecting themselves but they go way beyond that with the kidnappings and straight murders that they commit. I can say I never saw one of the others die that I was sympathetic to them in any way.
I think it is rooted in self-righteousness. They have their little tin god Jacob telling them what is right and wrong and puffing up their heads with the notion that they are better because they are in his little model society that exists to prove the goodness of mankind. This makes them think "We are good." From that basic assumption it is only a short step to "Those who we oppose are bad," and then we get to "Whatever we do to them is justified, because they are bad, and our goodness must be protected no matter how harshly." All those people who were killed out of excessive caution and whatnot? Necessary casualties when compared to the awesome and elite Jacobite society.
Yeah you are right. Tin god is a good way to put it.

Those necessary casualties are pretty downright evil. Maybe smokelocke is the better choice out of the 2. Ya know except for the whole killing everyone as smokey. I wonder if anyone has a body count for how many people Smokey has killed on screen.

I agree about the priest but I had an idea about that. That Idea is that the priest was an Other or Hostile or whatever you want to call em. He was Jacob's pawn. Thats why he said what he did to Richard. To get him to the island. Though it was the captain who picked him I think the priest played a role in getting him to the island or maybe he was just that doctors lover or friend and hated richard for killing him.
The only problem I have with that scenario (the Richard's tool scenario, I mean - it had occured to me as well) is that Jacob wasn't actually working through tools and minions yet. The episode seems to imply that Richard is the first time he decides to use a henchman.

He might have the right of it but we also see that the MIB seems to be hungry to get off the island for some reason. And he is willing to kill alot of people to do it. The mass murder at the temple was just sickening.
Well, these people are hardly innocent bystanders - they have been serving the cause that keeps him imprisoned all these years on the island, and he gave them a chance to leave. There is no indication that he harmed the stewardess from Oceanic 815 whose name escapes me at the moment, or anyone else who took him up on his grace period. The people he killed were the ones who chose to blindly follow the dictates of his dead (and possibly evil and certainly douchey) jailor.

I wouldn't say those people were evil and needed killing. What were they doing to smokey that was keeping him on the island? holding hands, weaving baskets, shoot their water wasn't even good anymore. I saw no indication anyone in that temple would be able to keep SmokeLocke on the island. How could they? So why did they die? I mean it wasn't even a fair fight. Some of them had guns but what about the others that chose to stay because that hippy guy was running around telling everyone it was ok to stay at the temple cause nothing was wrong and then Sayid kills Dogen who some how has the ability to keep Smokelocke out. How did he do that anyway? Do you have to take some vows and get blessed in the sacred waters of the temple or something. I think that Temple holds answers to some questions.

And look at what he did to Sayid! Sayid doesn't care about anyone except himself now and that is not who he was as a character at all leading up to his resurection in the temple. He was committed to other people and cared deeply for them. He was also a huge help to everyone on the island after the crash. His actions never showed him to be evil just that he might have served evil in Iraq.
And we don't know that it was Smokelocke who did it. For all we know it was a property of the water. Presumably the same thing was done to young Ben (after he was shot by Sayid, let us not forget) and Richard made it sound pretty dire last season. Maybe Sayid's history of willingness to do horrible things in the name of good indicated a corruptibility on his part. Recall that he tortured "Henry Gale" and was ready to go to town on Sawyer in the early seasons. He undertook a series of assassinations of people solely on the word of Ben Linus that they were dangerous, and was willing to feign an affectionate & intimate relationship with one of his targets in order to get close enough to kill her. He appears to have turned against Ben mostly because Ben suddenly ended the killing and left him anchorless, not out of moral revulsion for what they were doing. He attempts to murder Ben as a child, despite Ben doing no great evil since Sayid had been working for him (though he does not know of Ben's attempt on Penny's life). While these might all have been for altruistic reasons, he is clearly a guy who is willing to bend even his own standards of right and wrong in pursuit of a greater good. It is just as likely that whatever infected him was able to do so through his own corruptibility as Smokelocke's influence.

I have to say I completely overlooked some of Sayids story. BuT its not a crazy assumption that he is completly different and it seems to me that he is now enslaved to Locke's cause. I would say Sayid's actions over the past have been on the fence of good and evil. I think Smokelocke made him completely evil. look at his actions since his ressurection. He kills Dogen and the Hippie dude and lets Smokey in to kill some soldiers of Jacobs too but like I said how many innocents did the hippie guy convince to stay. There were some Women and children killed too in the temple I believe. It wasn't just Jacob's converts with guns in there. Kate was almost swept completely away by him too. She has been a power for good on the island even with her checkered past.

Smokelocke might have the right of how people are but if he gets off the island then everyone on the world better watch out cause he is gonna kill enslave anyone and everyone who doesn't do his bidding. Can he even be killed? If he can why has he been trapped on the island so long?
Interesting questions, but he shows no sign of the behavior you attribute to him. He's a lot more forthright with his associates than Jacob, with the latter's cultivation of his mystery and demands to be blindly followed on faith.

Jacob might be wrong about people. We see how wrong he was about Ben. But even then he seems to care about people in general and life. Smokelocke doesn't unless they can serve him. Jacobs followers might be terrible and Ruthless but what is Jacob supposed to do about it? Kill them all? That would be as bad as what Smokelocke does. Jacob seems to deal in grays while Smokelocke seems to deal in black or white. Death or be my slave, or serve me. Jacob takes people as they are and trusts that there inner good nature will serve him. This doesn't always work out because people are real assholes sometimes. I think everyone can attest to that but you have to look at the other side of the coin, people can be really helpful and kind as well and do lots of good. I think Jacob is the one with the right outlook.
Sure the potential for great goodness is there, but most people still fall way short of it, and indulge their worse impulses far more often. What is more, in groups they degenerate further. Note how a period of solitude is almost universally necessary in every fictitious or legendary or mythical epiphany or attainment of enlightenment or moment of self-realization? I think Jacob and people with his view see the possibilities and blind themselves to all else, while people like the MIB see those same possibilities and how easily people ignore, reject or fall short of them for the worst reasons.

I also think you attribute a little too much malice and tyrannical attitudes to a guy, who, as bad as he may be, has never directly expressed malice toward anyone other than the man who is keeping him on the island (and by extension, anyone who would take his place). I can't help but think that Jack would be entirely sympathetic to this agenda before his own escape, and that any number of the passengers of 815 and Juliet might agree with him.


I might attribute too much but look how he treated Richard in just the last episode when he appeared as his wife ,and shows Richard her dying, to a delerious chained guy who couldn't even reach the rainwater dripping down in front of him. That seems mighty cruel compared to a guy who leaves people alone for the most part to follow their own destiny.

No Malice? I would say it showed alot of Malice to kill the people in the Temple even with giving them a chance to leave and follow him. Sure now they are not dead but most likely his slaves do to his bidding. Sawyer might not know what he is getting into looking to double cross Smokey.
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