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I think Etzel Send a noteboard - 08/07/2010 09:00:46 AM

The Murandian army won't know that they are fighting for the Shadow. Roedran will just announce that Andor has to be attacked and his army will follow. Roedran started to built his army in WH, exactly at the time when Demandred told "how busy he is".

But how long would that be useful? As soon as the first Trollocs appeared... And why would Demandred consider seizing control of Tear, Andor, and Illian to be stupid plans while he was wasting time consolidating and controlling a backwater like Murandy?

Demandred didn't want to take a powerful nation, because it attracts too much attention. But that doesn't exclude that he would eventually want a smaller, but more shapeable and tactically interesting nation like Murandy. However, as said, at first Demandred just took control of most Dragonsworn, IMO. Also Demandred's comment in KoD that he has "followers everywhere" would support this idea.

If Murandy attacks Andor this will of course lead to more chaos at the right moment.

Besides that, it makes sense that Demandred was behind the Dragonsworn, who created lots of chaos in the Westlands, e.g. especially Masema.

Except that we have evidence that someone appeared to Masema in his dreams in the guise of an angelic, light-embodying Dragon to push him over the edge. That final POV made it sound like it wasn't the first time that had happened, and both the skill with dreams and the willingness to portray Rand as a pure and holy being suggests someone other than Demandred. As Dominic has often argued, Lanfear makes by far the most sense here.

Lanfear makes hardly sense, because she was concentrated on the ta'veren, especially Rand, later captured, dead and then became Moridin's pet.

Especially considering Sammael's words, it makes the most sense that Demandred controlled Masema to create chaos.

That is not to say that all DRAGONSWORN were Lanfear's doing. The Prophet was only one part of the larger dragonsworn movement. The Arad Doman dragonsworn were different than the Ghealdan group, who were different than the Tarabon group, who were different than the "dragonsworn" who were really Niall's cronies. Demandred may have had a hand in one of these groups and even in directing the Prophet's movements. It is worth noting the later connections between the Seanchan and Masema, which may have been part of a plan by the Shadow.

The dealings between Masema and Suroth also rather point to Demandred and Semirhage helping each other.

Contrary to that, it makes not much sense for the story that Fain suddenly corrupts Murandy to get yet another power base, which will in the end of course be insignificant on its own, though.

Except that the SL corruption seems to brainwash and control deeper than the Shadow. Also, Mordeth and Fain both demonstrate abilities beyond the norm and it may be that Fain could do more with a city than any Forsaken ever could.

We never actually saw Fain taking control of a whole city or a nation (as the Forsaken did). He just corrupts little groups and people a bit.

Taim is most likely working on his own, just supervised by Moridin and SH. It's very unlikely that Demandred and Taim could work together, considering that they are very similar characters and almost equal in terms of OP strength. Plus, if that were the case, Taim or other DF AM would have told Demandred about Flinn & Co. Consequently, SH most likely gave Taim the Seal. Remember that the Shadow under Ishy already searched for the Seals in TGH and likely before (while Demandred started much later, as far as we know). Osan'gar was sent to the BT to support Taim or watch a bit what he does. But two Forsaken at the same place, namely Demandred and Osan'gar, doesn't make real sense.

Demandred may indeed think he is more in charge than he really is. I have long suspected that Taim would betray on of his higher ups in order to seize power as a full equal of the Chosen. Still, I think that Demandred trained Taim and instructed him in how to militarize the Asha'man. The BT operation is incredibly well organized and secretive. Also, we have absolutely zero evidence (I think) that Ishy/Moridin has channeled anything except the TP since the Age of Legends. He would definitely need to channel saidin to instruct Taim and I find that unlikely. Yes, Ishy promised to train Rand, but a) Rand is special as the Dragon and b) Ishy lies A LOT.

As said, I seriously doubt that Demandred would train anyone, it's not his profession. Also no one (no Forsaken or LTT) comments that the AM act like a channeler army in the AoL. The fist symbol would also too much give away that Demandred is there for spies.

I think Ishy would use the OP if he needs to.

That Demandred did not recognize Flinn or know that any Asha'man were with Rand is good evidence that Demandred spends very little time at the BT and may have had some communication failures with Taim (who may have wanted to hide this problem from his superiors).

There are probably such communication failures, because Taim and Demandred simply never communicated..

Finally, I know RJ stated flat out that we would not see Shara or Seanchan again in the series, but I still think it odd that so much has been made of these super powerful lands and only one has so far been relevant to the story. Will the Ayyad and the Shara armies participate in the Last Battle (we don't have to see their lands for the people to be involved)? Graendal threw the Sharan Empire into chaos by decapitating their figure heads, but that still leaves the infamous Ayyad channelers and their breeding program (is this only from tBWB or do we know about the Ayyad from any other sources?) If huge OP battles are in the near future, wouldn't Shara be a huge wildcard? Is it feasible that Demandred has been working on not only the BT, but Shara too? I dunno, but Semirhage with the Seanchan, Messaana with the WT, and Demandred with the BT almost, but not quite, accounts for that major institutions of channelers in the world. Why leave Shara alone?

I think Shara is simply not the battleground, and the Forsaken will generally leave it alone, except for creating a bit chaos.

Besides that, it's simply wrong that Demandred controls the BT. Except for 100 AM, the other 400-500 work for Rand.

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If Demandred isn't Roedran (or controlling Roedran) Deadsy - 07/07/2010 10:08:19 AM 1655 Views

Others suggest... Etzel - 07/07/2010 10:31:33 AM 725 Views

Re: Others suggest... Deadsy - 07/07/2010 10:46:31 AM 596 Views

Yeah... Etzel - 07/07/2010 11:03:21 AM 635 Views

Re: Yeah... DomA - 07/07/2010 12:58:04 PM 726 Views

The thing is... Etzel - 07/07/2010 01:30:11 PM 568 Views

Re: The thing is... Sidious - 07/07/2010 03:24:34 PM 479 Views

As said... Etzel - 07/07/2010 03:56:20 PM 518 Views

Re: The thing is... LoialT - 07/07/2010 04:27:11 PM 469 Views

I think Etzel - 08/07/2010 09:00:46 AM 583 Views

It all began.... DomA - 07/07/2010 11:49:39 AM 758 Views

The idea is... Etzel - 07/07/2010 12:39:19 PM 566 Views

Lol. So Slayer is the easy solution to every single mysterious death in the series? Dull as hell *NM* Lordling - 07/07/2010 12:57:12 PM 218 Views

Well, it's his job after all, thus a logical solution. *NM* Etzel - 07/07/2010 01:18:52 PM 226 Views

No, Etzel... Shannow - 07/07/2010 01:03:20 PM 605 Views

I disagree... Etzel - 07/07/2010 01:18:11 PM 540 Views

And besides... Etzel - 07/07/2010 01:49:04 PM 544 Views

Fain and Slayer RandAllThor - 07/07/2010 08:47:48 PM 513 Views

Fain playing a significant role in the LB would too much allude to LotR, IMO. *NM* Etzel - 07/07/2010 11:28:29 PM 499 Views

As would Moiraine returning. fionwe1987 - 08/07/2010 02:13:25 AM 572 Views

It depends on Fain's role... Etzel - 08/07/2010 08:34:27 AM 430 Views

But what does "wildcard" really mean? RandAllThor - 08/07/2010 03:19:16 PM 443 Views

for a long time i thought shara and their tattooed channeles. nigelgoboom - 09/07/2010 05:24:16 PM 451 Views

I agree. I think this refers to The Great Battle done but the world not yet done with battle RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/07/2010 04:07:05 PM 465 Views

Fain doesn't make sense from a timing stand point darius_sedai - 07/07/2010 04:46:00 PM 492 Views

Indeed... Etzel - 08/07/2010 08:42:45 AM 456 Views

agreed darius_sedai - 09/07/2010 05:56:23 PM 424 Views

One reason the Murandy-New SL theory makes sense... fionwe1987 - 07/07/2010 07:19:56 PM 450 Views

That's most likely just coincidence. *NM* Etzel - 07/07/2010 11:30:00 PM 214 Views

Riiiight... because WoT is chock full of coincidences. fionwe1987 - 08/07/2010 02:12:47 AM 429 Views

In any case... Etzel - 08/07/2010 08:31:19 AM 477 Views

Re: That's most likely just coincidence. scooter - 08/07/2010 02:13:36 AM 459 Views

They followed Fain all the way to Caemlyn and shot arrows at Rand Deadsy - 08/07/2010 04:21:14 AM 424 Views

Yeah, I agree, Roedran isn't under Fain's control. *NM* Etzel - 08/07/2010 08:38:15 AM 306 Views

Re: It all began.... echooff - 08/07/2010 12:11:02 PM 425 Views

Murandy just doesn't fit Demandred. Also, Sammael could have been wrong. Logain - 07/07/2010 07:57:19 PM 686 Views

Here's another possibility scooter - 08/07/2010 02:21:25 AM 524 Views

Another possibility for Demandred Narg - 08/07/2010 03:20:27 AM 442 Views

Sammael probably refered to the Dragonswron in the south of the Westlands... Etzel - 08/07/2010 08:37:04 AM 397 Views

What if Demandred's base is... entyti - 08/07/2010 04:52:40 AM 470 Views

my problem with this Deadsy - 08/07/2010 04:59:35 AM 458 Views

Well, I tend to agree with you entyti - 09/07/2010 12:27:04 AM 414 Views

I actually think he only made the island to poke fun at Australia *NM* Deadsy - 09/07/2010 05:13:25 AM 226 Views

I doubt that you could that easily control the Madmen. *NM* Etzel - 08/07/2010 08:44:42 AM 192 Views

Unlikely... maybe even impossible Sidious - 08/07/2010 10:14:24 AM 447 Views

Definitely possible. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 08/07/2010 02:06:57 PM 441 Views

Now here's a man with... vision! entyti - 09/07/2010 12:24:13 AM 417 Views

not really darius_sedai - 10/07/2010 12:25:31 PM 424 Views

That's factually incorrect entyti - 12/07/2010 12:41:48 AM 460 Views

yes, factually incorrect by you

Sidious - 12/07/2010 08:02:23 AM 480 Views

darius_sedai - 12/07/2010 04:40:45 PM 412 Views

I think Lanfears' estimation is incorrect. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/07/2010 04:15:44 PM 451 Views

this is why i keep thinkin shara, with their tattoed pedigrees for channelers. *NM* nigelgoboom - 12/07/2010 02:17:53 AM 190 Views

Re: this is why i keep thinkin shara, with their tattoed pedigrees for channelers. scooter - 13/07/2010 04:20:19 AM 411 Views

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<quote id="126705">
<quote id="126477"><quote>The Murandian army won't know that they are fighting for the Shadow. Roedran will just announce that Andor has to be attacked and his army will follow. Roedran started to built his army in WH, exactly at the time when Demandred told "how busy he is".</quote></quote>
<quote id="126477">But how long would that be useful? As soon as the first Trollocs appeared... And why would Demandred consider seizing control of Tear, Andor, and Illian to be stupid plans while he was wasting time consolidating and controlling a backwater like Murandy?</quote>

If Murandy attacks Andor this will of course lead to more chaos at the right moment.

<quote id="126477"><quote> Besides that, it makes sense that Demandred was behind the Dragonsworn, who created lots of chaos in the Westlands, e.g. especially Masema.</quote></quote>
<quote id="126477">Except that we have evidence that someone appeared to Masema in his dreams in the guise of an angelic, light-embodying Dragon to push him over the edge. That final POV made it sound like it wasn't the first time that had happened, and both the skill with dreams and the willingness to portray Rand as a pure and holy being suggests someone other than Demandred. As Dominic has often argued, Lanfear makes by far the most sense here. </quote>

Lanfear makes hardly sense, because she was concentrated on the ta'veren, especially Rand, later captured, dead and then became Moridin's pet.

Especially considering Sammael's words, it makes the most sense that Demandred controlled Masema to create chaos.

<quote id="126477">That is not to say that all DRAGONSWORN were Lanfear's doing. The Prophet was only one part of the larger dragonsworn movement. The Arad Doman dragonsworn were different than the Ghealdan group, who were different than the Tarabon group, who were different than the "dragonsworn" who were really Niall's cronies. Demandred may have had a hand in one of these groups and even in directing the Prophet's movements. It is worth noting the later connections between the Seanchan and Masema, which may have been part of a plan by the Shadow.</quote>

The dealings between Masema and Suroth also rather point to Demandred and Semirhage helping each other.

<quote id="126477"><quote>Contrary to that, it makes not much sense for the story that Fain suddenly corrupts Murandy to get yet another power base, which will in the end of course be insignificant on its own, though. </quote></quote>
<quote id="126477">Except that the SL corruption seems to brainwash and control deeper than the Shadow. Also, Mordeth and Fain both demonstrate abilities beyond the norm and it may be that Fain could do more with a city than any Forsaken ever could.</quote>

We never actually saw Fain taking control of a whole city or a nation (as the Forsaken did). He just corrupts little groups and people a bit.

<quote id="126477"><quote>Taim is most likely working on his own, just supervised by Moridin and SH. It's very unlikely that Demandred and Taim could work together, considering that they are very similar characters and almost equal in terms of OP strength. Plus, if that were the case, Taim or other DF AM would have told Demandred about Flinn & Co. Consequently, SH most likely gave Taim the Seal. Remember that the Shadow under Ishy already searched for the Seals in TGH and likely before (while Demandred started much later, as far as we know). Osan'gar was sent to the BT to support Taim or watch a bit what he does. But two Forsaken at the same place, namely Demandred and Osan'gar, doesn't make real sense.</quote></quote>
<quote id="126477">Demandred may indeed think he is more in charge than he really is. I have long suspected that Taim would betray on of his higher ups in order to seize power as a full equal of the Chosen. Still, I think that Demandred trained Taim and instructed him in how to militarize the Asha'man. The BT operation is incredibly well organized and secretive. Also, we have absolutely zero evidence (I think) that Ishy/Moridin has channeled anything except the TP since the Age of Legends. He would definitely need to channel saidin to instruct Taim and I find that unlikely. Yes, Ishy promised to train Rand, but a) Rand is special as the Dragon and b) Ishy lies A LOT.</quote>

I think Ishy would use the OP if he needs to.

<quote id="126477">That Demandred did not recognize Flinn or know that any Asha'man were with Rand is good evidence that Demandred spends very little time at the BT and may have had some communication failures with Taim (who may have wanted to hide this problem from his superiors). </quote>

There are probably such communication failures, because Taim and Demandred simply never communicated.. ;)

<quote id="126477">Finally, I know RJ stated flat out that we would not see Shara or Seanchan again in the series, but I still think it odd that so much has been made of these super powerful lands and only one has so far been relevant to the story. Will the Ayyad and the Shara armies participate in the Last Battle (we don't have to see their lands for the people to be involved)? Graendal threw the Sharan Empire into chaos by decapitating their figure heads, but that still leaves the infamous Ayyad channelers and their breeding program (is this only from tBWB or do we know about the Ayyad from any other sources?) If huge OP battles are in the near future, wouldn't Shara be a huge wildcard? Is it feasible that Demandred has been working on not only the BT, but Shara too? I dunno, but Semirhage with the Seanchan, Messaana with the WT, and Demandred with the BT almost, but not quite, accounts for that major institutions of channelers in the world. Why leave Shara alone?</quote>

I think Shara is simply not the battleground, and the Forsaken will generally leave it alone, except for creating a bit chaos.

Besides that, it's simply wrong that Demandred controls the BT. Except for 100 AM, the other 400-500 work for Rand.
</quote>

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