Kythorian,

Thanks for the assistance - I agree with most every comment you made though I might quibble with your interpretation of the evidence in some and request evidence citation in some. However, I still am looking for confirmation on the various questions so that the discussions I am interested may be further clarified, so I am turning to Sanderson/Team Jordan; as far as I know there are not explicit/direct answers to the listed questions, though there are certainly inferred answers (many of which you note); if your reply was in the spirit of a general assist - Thanks, but if you were trying to provide direct answers, I want to be careful as I still want my questions to be in the "question pool" in order to possibly get direct evidence/answers.

I particularly appreciate the information from someone who seems to be knowledgeable about the One Power aspect of WOT. Since I like One Power Banter, I wanted to response to some comments to those which I have a quibble with and/or desire more citation!: (you don’t necessarily have to respond – I don’t know if this is really the thread to do so, yet I want to provide my thinking on some of these questions in light of my basic concern to have more direct evidence.

1. I think you are likely right with Rand and Egwene on being strong in all of the Five Powers. Yet, do you have a reference for Rand being strong in all Five Powers (or particularly strong case for this extrapolation)? I cannot think of any direct references except to his strength in Spirit in TDR, and Fire (and Earth?) in TSR. I think it can be inferred that Egwene is strong in all Five Powers from evidence in TDR, TSR, and COT, but I do want to ensure this interpretation is true as I think her abilities in Air and Water are more unsure than her ability in Earth, Spirit, and Fire.

2. Regarding the full power potential of some of our main character channelers, I think the achievement of full potential is still in question as pertinent quotes haven't been seen as much in recent books regarding the fulfillment of potential strength, so direct evidence is still in question.

3. Regarding the strength of the Forsaken, I am less sure regarding Demandred's place.

This is the list of Female Forsaken (minus Lanfear as Cyndane; though this wouldn't change the ranking order):

Lanfear
Graendal
Semirhage
Mesaana
Moghedien

This is relatively uncontested as far as I know and helpful for the point that the list IS ordered according to Power Strength (if the female list is ordered in such a way, it is more plausible the male list is as well).

The male Forsaken are listed in this order:

Ishamael
Aginor
Balthamel
Sammael
Rahvin
Be'lal
Demandred
Asmodean

I think it is generally accepted among fans concerned with this discussion that the “bookends of the male list” are correct – Ishamael, Asmodean, and Aginor, and thus that the middle contains the right people (though not necessarily in right order). The one potential exception is Demandred (who is also a sort of bookend on this list); I agree Demandred in the sixth position definitely seems odd, particularly in light of this sentence from the BBOBA/the Guide: "'Almost' seemed to be the story of his life. Born one day after Lews Therin, he had almost as much strength and almost as much skill" (assuming strength refers to One Power Strength). But I can't think, off hand, of any other reference that is explicitly comparing Demandred with another male Forsaken or Lews Therin (implicitly I think he can be viewed as rather powerful, but maybe he is just rather Talented and skilled?). Basically, I have found the BBOBA to be correct in listing the direct and inferred list of Strength in the One Power for both female and male Forsaken, with the possible exception of Demandred, so I would like a direct response so that I may either keep, minimize the interpretative power, or throw out this piece of evidence in thinking about a strength list.

Regarding the thirteen shielding trick, I looked at my notes and I saw that I had forgotten a pivotal quote, so the interpretation you offered is the correct one as far as I can tell – Thanks!

I think I do want to change my question regarding Egwene and Moghedien to:

Moghedien compare to Egwene? (much stronger? slightly stronger?)

I ask this question because I have been working on a revised Strength in the Power list based on the exceptional one produced by the Thirteenth Depository. On my 21 level Saidar listing (which is not necessarily linear), Egwene is on the 15th level, while currently Moghedien is one the 16th and possibly could be on the 17th, though then I am less sure about Mesaana's placement as I currently have her on the 17th level or possibly 18th (which is why I asked about her compared to Moghedien). In light of this I am trying to get further clarification on Egwene and Moghedien and Mesaana so there can be more definite ordering.

Ok, regarding your comments about Power Strength as a bell curve and Asmodean compared to Lanfear, I have a great deal to say, but because of the purpose of this thread, I will just briefly note a few things. Essentially, I have two major contentions at this time: we can continue to look for any further hints on the differences between the various levels of Strength (which I don’t think you would contest) and there are comparisons made between the saidar rankings and saidin rankings even if in RJ’s notes there are two separate lists (which you might contest regarding comparisons). I think it is fair to say we have explicit comparisons between saidar and saidin rankings both in the text and outside the text (RJ statements). I want to briefly list some key examples regarding this second contention, then mention the first.

A key quote:

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"
- Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve. I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though. [bold mine]

And another pertinent quote:

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005, NYC - Syraelle reporting

- Re: bulk "strength" in the power
RJ reiterated that men were stronger than women by a couple of levels, including Lanfear [whom he reiterated was a woman after all]; but then he also reminded us that that did not take into account the dexterity factor. [bold mine]

Based on this last two, I understand RJ to be implying that one power strength ranking list, and one bell curve, could potentially be formed, though he didn’t do it in his notes (but he evidently did think about it based on these quoted answers). Of course in a dueling situation, “effectiveness”, dexterity, Talents, skills, knowledge, etc. are all important, but this doesn’t mean strength in the Power is removed as a distinguishable factor.

We also have in-text pertinent quotes for the spread of channeling ability and strength among both Saidin and Saidar ranking.

Asmodean’s statement from FoH, Chapter 3, Pale Shadows:

Exasperation filled Asmodean's tone. "Ask a philosopher if you want to know why.
Why can't dogs fly? Perhaps in the grand scheme of the Pattern, it's a balance for men being stronger. We
cannot link without them, but they can without us. Up to thirteen of them can, anyway, a small mercy; after that, they need men to make the circle larger."
Rand was sure he had caught a lie, this time. Moiraine said that in the Age of Legends men and women
had been equally strong in the Power, and she could not lie. He said as much, adding, "The Five Powers are equal."
"Earth, Fire, Air, Water, and Spirit." Natael strummed a chord for each. "They are equal, true, and it is
also true that what a man can do with one, a woman can also. In kind, at least. But that has nothing to do with men being stronger. …….Some women have stronger arms than some men, but in general it is the other way around. The same holds with strength in the Power, and in about the same proportion."
Rand nodded slowly. It did make a kind of sense. Elayne and Egwene were considered two of the
strongest women to train in the Tower for a thousand years or more, but he had tested himself against them
once, and later Elayne had confessed that she felt like a kitten seized by a mastiff.
Asmodean was not finished. "If two women link, they do not double their strength-linking is not as
simple as adding together the power of each-but if they are strong enough, they can match a man. And when they take the circle to thirteen, then you must be wary. Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard. [bold mine]

The proportion comment is telling I think and very interesting.

Also from Graendal, Path of Daggers, Chapter 12, New Alliances:

The girl [Cyndane] was stronger in the One Power than she [Graendal] herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.

Here we have “percentile prose” which is helpful in our consideration of the mentioned bell curve as well as informative to Saidar and Saidin rankings and any list that puts them together.

Also, we do not have much detail on exactly what the differences between the various levels are, though in light of the above percentage information and the existence of “percentile prose,” I retain some “hope” that there could possibly be more percentages which could further add to our picture of the strength lists, hence my question I suppose).

Thanks again!


Asha’manoftheLight