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I have no doubt at all that RJ laid out the idea of Graendal being discovered and escaping darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 04/12/2010 07:07:14 PM
An author consistently uses the same narrative voice, plot devices and style of writing for 11 books. SUDDENLY, when a new author takes over, major players start acting out of character, performing actions they never would have earlier, and scenes pop up that don't fit the storyline nearly as well. The Graendal scene is one such as those. Aran'gar acted like a Novice, Graendal spoke out-of-place thoughts aloud, and the entire Graendal mystery was convoluted, out of place, and the timing was odd as well.

Do I think RJ intended to have Graendal escape an attack from Rand? Maybe to probably. Do I think BS came up with how? Probably.

There's no doubt that BS wrote the scene, and there's no doubt that he came up with the details surrounding the events. It' not all that difficult to pick out RJ's writings from BS's. It's a little harder to pick out who came up with what plot scenario--not the words, but the ideas--but it's not impossible. The Graendal scene may have been designed by RJ as a means to indicate how far into madness and despair Rand had fallen--but the way in which it was done was most definitely BS, and I did not approve. It was belittling to the readers and to the characters.


an attack, I also have no doubt that RJ intended Aran'gar to die in that attack. I can't believe anyone would let BSand play around with major characters in such a way. I can't see RJ not leaving notes behind on how each of the Forsaken were to meet their sticky end.

I do agree that the scene itself was obviously written by Sanderson. I imagine based off of notes like:

"Graendal tricks Aran'gar and escapes letting Aran'gar get Balefired"

I mean come on did anyone really think Aran'gar was going to survive her partnership with Graendal? It was hinted at a number of times that Graendal made several alliances and proceeded to kill off her partners during the AoL ... Aran'gar was going doomed from the start!

Had RJ written the TOM scene I imagine Graendal would have been far more subtle than slamming a shield on Aran'gar in a panicked moment. But overall I didn't find anything in the actual scene too out of the blue, several posters, myself included, had postulated for months that Graendal used Delana for the compulsion.

I just think Sanderson doesn't get Graendal ... she's gone from stupid to brilliant and from bold to terrified one too many times to fit. RJ always made her sly/crafty/cunning, highly manipulative and just dramatic enough to be amusing ... with the understanding that everything she put out up front was a false image of the real woman. BSand didn't quite master the false image piece IMO.

It's kind of the same thing that he does with Mat. Makes his POV too overt. Mat would never have thought openly about using his smile to manipulate a woman. RJ would just slip in a comment like "Mat gave her his best smile" and the understanding was that Mat was trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes. Or we'd hear from another character that Mat was a charmer or some such. Mat doesn't actually think of himself in these terms.

Much like Graendal under RJ never actually walked us through every though process she had going on ... she would generally just state what she had gleaned from the situation and give us hints about why. RJ would simply have had her seize the doves mind with a unique weave to the TP and observe al'Thor ... no mucking around with feeling ill and no bitching about not being able to hear properly. She would have flown in seen what she needed to and have quickly devised a plan to trick Aran'gar into staying behind. Or would have used Compulsion on Aran'gar rather than throwing a shield on her ... anyway ... I am just rambling now :)
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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What was the purpose of Graendal?! - 25/11/2010 03:54:29 PM 1512 Views
BS wanted to put her behind a "complicated" plot - 25/11/2010 04:11:01 PM 779 Views
Yes, it's BSand's fault. RJ couldn't have EVER planned it all out himself right? Yes mm hmm - 25/11/2010 04:19:02 PM 714 Views
read DomA's review. BullShit ruined the series. *NM* - 25/11/2010 04:31:56 PM 358 Views
Links or it didn't happen. - 25/11/2010 04:53:24 PM 668 Views
oh but, bookwyrm, now they have such a nice easy scapegoat!! *NM* - 26/11/2010 01:35:53 AM 302 Views
And DomA is such infallible authority on the all things WoT why? *NM* - 25/11/2010 06:00:42 PM 333 Views
I'd say that DomA is one of the most thoughtful posters here. He researches his comments and gives - 25/11/2010 06:47:58 PM 699 Views
You got me wrong - 25/11/2010 07:11:43 PM 814 Views
That doesn't mean he has any actual evidence as to BS tampering with RJ's notes - 26/11/2010 01:33:08 AM 607 Views
Re: That doesn't mean he has any actual evidence as to BS tampering with RJ's notes - 26/11/2010 03:47:38 PM 634 Views
Okay, what would you have had him do? - 27/11/2010 01:54:19 AM 536 Views
Interesting question. - 27/11/2010 02:58:55 AM 697 Views
Re: Interesting question. - 27/11/2010 07:56:38 PM 676 Views
Re: Interesting question. - 27/11/2010 11:52:53 PM 534 Views
Sorry, Dominic, but I strongly disagree. - 28/11/2010 05:30:28 AM 548 Views
Re: Okay, what would you have had him do? - 27/11/2010 06:02:22 PM 489 Views
clearly the timeline is wonky, but it's easy enough to keep track of - 04/12/2010 05:32:34 PM 687 Views
A minor aside - 26/11/2010 02:49:03 PM 519 Views
oops minor omission, i meant the last 3 books were meant to be one big tome *NM* - 26/11/2010 04:40:53 PM 281 Views
Meh, even that is pretty ridiculous - 26/11/2010 06:32:20 PM 496 Views
Well - 26/11/2010 03:01:46 PM 541 Views
I have no doubt at all that RJ laid out the idea of Graendal being discovered and escaping - 04/12/2010 07:07:14 PM 875 Views
Lots - 25/11/2010 04:38:52 PM 752 Views
Re: Lots - 25/11/2010 04:53:38 PM 605 Views
What is the point of anything then? - 25/11/2010 05:01:15 PM 743 Views
Re: What is the point of anything then? - 25/11/2010 05:07:30 PM 625 Views
Re: What is the point of anything then? - 25/11/2010 05:11:15 PM 660 Views
I don't agree with "deus ex machina style" - 25/11/2010 05:58:19 PM 728 Views
Re: I don't agree with "deus ex machina style" - 25/11/2010 06:22:31 PM 655 Views
Re: I don't agree with "deus ex machina style" - 25/11/2010 06:34:57 PM 603 Views
Re: I don't agree with "deus ex machina style" - 25/11/2010 08:43:38 PM 607 Views
Re: I don't agree with "deus ex machina style" - 25/11/2010 08:47:10 PM 597 Views
I imagine it is both. - 25/11/2010 11:37:21 PM 620 Views
No, it wasn't obvious. - 26/11/2010 03:25:09 AM 524 Views
Well, it was after I read it. - 26/11/2010 02:03:20 PM 587 Views
Yes, she was useless to this storyline. - 25/11/2010 11:40:57 PM 664 Views
If it hadn't been Graendal, it WOULD have been rather contrived... - 26/11/2010 01:35:12 AM 502 Views
Well, we were under the impression that Moridin alone had access to the True Power. - 26/11/2010 02:36:31 AM 723 Views
I was under the impression other Forsaken had access as well, something pointed out by their POVs .. - 27/11/2010 09:09:17 AM 525 Views
No, only Moridin - 27/11/2010 06:43:17 PM 496 Views
Please. - 26/11/2010 03:16:36 AM 621 Views
Hmm? - 26/11/2010 06:56:01 AM 548 Views
NM *NM* - 26/11/2010 07:29:40 AM 327 Views

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