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Disagree... Shannow Send a noteboard - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM
all we know is that Nynaeve channeled blocked for many years and even when she reached the Tower was at least as strong as the strongest level of living AS (Cadsuane aside). She was forced, even while blocked and grew rapidly. There is zero evidence to show us how much of her strength she had gained by the time she met Moghedien. I've always figured she was around 90% of her potential in that scene.

Personally I don't think it's possible for Moghedien to have survived at all if she was below 85% of maximum female potential ... at least not in the upper echelons of the Forsaken (only 29 people got to touch the TS and from her thoughts she was one of them).

Hiding and playing the role of the Spider is only a part in her survival ... that's a tactic and one that plays into her great abilities with TAR too ... but she was obviously powerful enough to rise to the higher levels and not just be someone's flunky. If she was only 60% of maximum potential there would have been so many people stronger than her (based on a bell curve) that there is no way she would have even gotten notice amongst the top levels, she would have been Graendal's errand girl.

And as the DO himself in ACOS (Mind Trap)

MY CHOSEN ARE ALWAYS THE STRONGEST. MY HAND MOVES

She would not have been on any of his councils if she weren't in the upper levels of female strength.

Moghedien was an asset for other reasons - her subversive skills, her unmatched ability in Tel aran rhiod.

The more you channel, the faster your strength grows. Nynaeve has channeled on a VERY limited basis for most of her life. Moghedien specifically says she will increase greatly once her block is removed. This only occurs in Crown of Swords.

And by PoD, she STILL hasn't reached her full potential.

I believe Nynaeve had a lot more to grow at the time when she matched Moghedien.

What you must remember is that it was not the Shadow's HIGHEST ranking 13 Chosen that were trapped into the Bore. RJ stated clearly that EVERY Dark Aes Sedai was called a member of the Chosen. All 500 000 to 5 million of them, irrespective of strength.

So it is clearly not to One Power strength that the Dark One refers in your quote where he says his Chosen are always the strongest. And it is not even the truth in any case, given that the most powerful man of all was on the side of the Light.

It is merely a little propaganda statement by the Dark One.

The Chosen that were trapped into the Bore were only the 13 who happened to be at that particular meeting when Lews Therin attacked. No doubt the matters under discussion related to areas of particular significance to those 13 Chosen. By coincidence.

Of the 13, only six were amongst the HIGHEST council of the Shadow. Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage and Graendal.

The rest were just there by coincidence.
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2442 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1372 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1464 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1338 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1351 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 1191 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1437 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 1177 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1315 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 678 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 605 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1272 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 1191 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 1241 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 1252 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 1146 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1252 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1266 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 1105 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 1187 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1362 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1264 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1270 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 1199 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1233 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1176 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 1045 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 649 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1218 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 1093 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 1137 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 1167 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 1089 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1342 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 1232 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 1163 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 1167 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 1219 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1261 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 1079 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 1162 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 1238 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1288 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1279 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1230 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 1083 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1313 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 1093 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1511 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 1204 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1460 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1234 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 675 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 1093 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 1105 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 1224 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 1136 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 1072 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 1044 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1354 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1279 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 1093 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 1092 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 1192 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 1088 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 1026 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 1138 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 1147 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 1241 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 717 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1277 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1281 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 1099 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 1193 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 1149 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 1165 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 1068 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 1071 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 1019 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 1084 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 579 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 599 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 1061 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1438 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 1172 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 1100 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 727 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 1159 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 1070 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 1086 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 1009 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 1143 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 1169 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 1131 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1214 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 1096 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 1120 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 670 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 591 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 965 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1327 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 1127 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 1099 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 1241 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 1152 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1393 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 1240 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 1169 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 674 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 717 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 1173 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 1123 Views
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