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Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions Tor Send a noteboard - 05/02/2012 09:02:28 PM
Also, for the record, forgetting about the date is another thing I see as unlikely.

But it did.

I know it did. What I meant to say was that it seems like an ulikely thing to happen, and it annoys me when the details are off. Or rather, when I see the details as being off, as it's obviously a subjective thing.

In this particular case, the Tower managed to keep records during the Trolloc Wars, and the Tower itself wasn't destroyed, so how could they not remember the year? I don't see it.

Also, as DomA points out, the AoL with their high tech and refined techniques were probably used to a much greater degree of precision. If you are used to knowing 100% and that is your standard for knowledge, adjusting to a point where you only know maybe 70% is going to feel like rushing into something blindly. Since the Power won't work if you don't believe it will, it could be that once the Breaking started rearranging the geography, the AoL Aes Sedai, used to the equvialent of GPS coordinates, could no longer use the precision with which they were accustomed to Travelling. Look at Aran'gar's scorn for Gareth Bryne, blundering along with what to her standards is complete ignorance of his surroundings, and no sophisticated command and control systems or communications with the extreme ends of his army. From her perspective, he is stumbling along in the dark, while to him and any other general, he is only operating under the conditions to which he is accustomed, and when his scouts are reporting in, feels like he has a clear view of what's going on. So in contrast, a channeler from the Third Age, despite what an AoLer would consider an appalling ignorance of his surroundings or destination, feels fully confident in opening up a gateway, that same AoL channeler, with none of her accustomed data flow or precise information, would be thinking "I don't know ANYTHING! How can I make a gateway work under these conditions?" And if you THINK you don't know enough to open a gateway, than you really DON'T know enough. That's how it works.


This is of course an assumption on your part, but what you're saying about knowledge of geography in the AoL sounds likely. However, we have seen the Forsaken Travel frequently in the current age, and they don't seem to have any problems. I mean, Semirhage went to Seanchan, and you can't think she went there by boat first to have a look, so she must have Travelled blindly.

I'm not saying he wasn't dangerous, just that the fact that he got the mind of a child disproves Cannoli's original statement, which was
What was his first impulse? As a child, with no thought of the consequences, he was going to start tearing apart the palace! Rather than DISprove, this SUPPORTS my assertion! Even a guy who is simply reduced to an innocent child-like state, is still inclined to destruction! And he would certainly have become worse over time, and less amenable to the fortunate reason Min was able to impart to him. Even a mild and initially unnoticable form of the madness, that appears superficially benevolent, is still inclined to casual destruction.


What you said was:
Remember, these are not random nutjobs, their madness comes from the Dark One's touch and in every case we have seen, it has manifested itself as delusions which incite or inspire violence and destruction. They were not randomly wandering around doing wierd stuff, they were turned into beings bent on destruction, and quite probably perversely attracted to horror and atrocity, as in the case of LTT who specifically targeted his family.

Randomly wandering around doing weird stuff seems to me to be exactly what Fedwin Morr is doing. He is certainly not "bent on destruction".

There is also the point that it is not particularly useful if you have nowhere to go (why do you think Nynaeve & Elayne never bothered to ask Moghedian about Traveling? They were committed to their course of remaining in Salidar, despite occasionally floating the notion of leaving). For the typical channeler in the Breaking, there was always more than enough to deal with right in front of them.


And if there was too much to deal with? Better to Travel to uncertainty than remain and face a certain death.

You are also operating under a blind assumption that the recruiting and training continued as normal. In fact, channeling crops up in any group of people, even those who were out of contact with the official, organized Aes Sedai. Since, for all intents and purposes, Aes Sedai & channelers were one and the same in the AoL, the channelers spontaneously arising among the people would have gone by that title too. You are assuming that the Aes Sedai of the late and post-Breaking were all taught by AoL Aes Sedai or by the students of AoL Aes Sedai, when in fact a lot of them would have learned on their own, or been taught by wilders.


Channelers spontaneously arising in the current day and age die in 75% of the cases. The rest, more often than not, have no idea what they are doing, and become the local Wisdom or similar. Hence, I see it as unlikely that The White Tower would have been founded as early as 98 AB if channeling had to be invented from scratch in around 100 years.

That I see it as unlikely doesn't mean that couldn't be the "official explanation" residing somewhere in the notes, just that if it is, I would find it annoying.

Expecting the Aes Sedai of the AB era to retain the teachings of the AoL Aes Sedai, is like assuming US Senators should all speak Latin, and recall the minor laws and regulations from their days as Roman quaestors and praetors.


That's just silly. In any case, I'm not talking about all the teachings of the AoL, just one weave which seems incredibly useful and relatively easy to learn.

And even if they had it, why would you assume that anyone who knew it had contact with all other Aes Sedai? All institutions and groups and people from the AoL were wiped out. People were knocked down to feral savagery and hunter-gatherer levels. There is no reason to believe that the AoL Aes Sedai did NOT die out without ever getting the chance to teach their knowledge or that those students they DID teach survived long enough to teach others. In the ordinary wilderness, a trigenarian is ancient - in the Breaking, people were probably fortunate to live to see their offspring walking before they themselves died. You'd think surgery a whole host of other skills would be too useful to forget or to not teach, but the civilized folks were ill-equipped to survive in the new world, and died out, while people who grabbed & ate the first rat they saw instead of studying lost techniques and lamenting the passing of civilization, were the ones who survived to pass on their genes.


Again, I'm not talking about surgery, which requires specialised equipment, or weaves which are complicated or require a rare Talent. I'm talking about a weave Sorilea, who wasn't even strong enough to make it work, could teach Cadsuane in one demonstration.

Channelers would have arisen within the tribes and clans and whatnot even if they never saw an Aes Sedai, and the old stories and legends would have preserved the name, like those of the Forsaken, who seem to be remembered almost like gods (rain is caused by Semirhage crying from the Dark One's beatings...8} ), rather than villainous men and women. You seem to be stuck in the mindset that Aes Sedai are an ongoing organization which has simply mutated and adapted over time, when in fact, they were a group that was wiped out, and their name appropriated by a new group that did what they did.


I'm stuck in the mindset that I see a continuous chain of teaching channeling lasting through the Breaking being the most likely explanation of why the White Tower was founded as early as 98 AB. I fully agree that that teaching would have been quick and dirty compared to during the AoL, but I still see Travelling as something that is so useful and so easy to teach that it should have survived.
Fram kamerater!
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How did Travelling become a lost Talent? Tor - 03/02/2012 09:09:39 AM 1976 Views
It is a little odd. Maybe because channelers weren't united for a while? beetnemesis - 03/02/2012 02:24:17 PM 910 Views
Re: How did Travelling become a lost Talent? Evil_Monkey - 03/02/2012 02:49:02 PM 750 Views
Hey, why don't you reference ANY place in the series a character learns ANY weave from a book? Cannoli - 04/02/2012 07:42:43 AM 862 Views
It has always seemed unlikely. Narg - 03/02/2012 04:53:14 PM 810 Views
i think it could be Yunalesca - 03/02/2012 07:56:18 PM 952 Views
THANK YOU!!! Are we the only ones here who can see the obvious?! Cannoli - 04/02/2012 07:40:39 AM 826 Views
Re: THANK YOU!!! Are we the only ones here who can see the obvious?! Tor - 04/02/2012 09:56:48 AM 948 Views
Re: THANK YOU!!! Are we the only ones here who can see the obvious?! DomA - 04/02/2012 01:57:10 PM 950 Views
Have you read the Big White Book? It details some of the events that happened during The Breaking RugbyPlayingAshaman - 08/02/2012 04:27:13 PM 747 Views
Re: i think it could be DomA - 04/02/2012 12:56:57 PM 867 Views
I'm really not seeing it. Praziquantel - 05/02/2012 04:19:38 AM 734 Views
It's always struck me as a tool of the Author more than a good hard fact LadyLorraine - 04/02/2012 01:40:06 AM 594 Views
Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions Cannoli - 04/02/2012 07:34:45 AM 995 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions Tor - 04/02/2012 09:48:52 AM 804 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions darius_sedai - 04/02/2012 03:04:48 PM 845 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions Tor - 04/02/2012 06:58:41 PM 736 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions Cannoli - 05/02/2012 12:00:05 AM 741 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions redqueen - 05/02/2012 04:05:57 AM 653 Views
I don't see why people are having trouble believing Traveling was lost in the Breaking darius_sedai - 05/02/2012 05:53:32 PM 703 Views
not to mention Yunalesca - 05/02/2012 07:16:59 PM 665 Views
Re: not to mention DomA - 05/02/2012 08:50:50 PM 990 Views
Re: not to mention Tor - 05/02/2012 09:33:40 PM 706 Views
Re: I don't see why people are having trouble believing Traveling was lost in the Breaking DomA - 05/02/2012 07:39:51 PM 878 Views
Medical knowledge... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2012 02:15:13 AM 589 Views
My point was that it's surprising only ONE Healing weave survived darius_sedai - 11/02/2012 08:25:02 PM 671 Views
Re: I don't see why people are having trouble believing Traveling was lost in the Breaking Tor - 05/02/2012 09:11:04 PM 595 Views
Rant rant rant darius_sedai - 11/02/2012 08:26:56 PM 702 Views
I agree. I was going to respond but you covered most of the bases. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 08/02/2012 04:13:20 PM 579 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions Tor - 05/02/2012 09:52:35 PM 761 Views
You really need to read the BWB sections regarding this darius_sedai - 14/02/2012 01:20:20 AM 589 Views
he needs to read it just to see it for his own eyes LadyLorraine - 14/02/2012 02:46:44 AM 557 Views
Re: he needs to read it just to see it for his own eyes Tor - 14/02/2012 10:15:46 PM 634 Views
I would agree with you on less structured parts of the series darius_sedai - 15/02/2012 03:38:37 PM 521 Views
Re: I would agree with you on less structured parts of the series Tor - 16/02/2012 09:41:29 PM 681 Views
That I can agree with darius_sedai - 17/02/2012 05:46:49 AM 730 Views
Re: That I can agree with Tor - 17/02/2012 09:26:50 AM 592 Views
Seriously! The Yellow should be ashamed darius_sedai - 17/02/2012 01:49:07 PM 718 Views
Well to be fair to the Yellow (which generally annoy me as an Ajah)... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/02/2012 06:20:06 PM 666 Views
Seems reasonable darius_sedai - 18/02/2012 05:49:40 PM 620 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions Tor - 05/02/2012 09:02:28 PM 714 Views
98 years... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2012 02:27:08 AM 565 Views
Why would the AoL Servants of All build themselves a self-aggrandizing island-city-fort-tower? Cannoli - 08/02/2012 03:03:49 PM 657 Views
Re: Why would the AoL Servants of All build themselves a self-aggrandizing island-city-fort-tower? AshaShan - 09/02/2012 10:38:23 PM 647 Views
Re: Why would the AoL Servants of All build themselves a self-aggrandizing island-city-fort-tower? LoialT - 11/02/2012 07:58:40 PM 738 Views
The White Tower began construction in 98 AB. Go read the section in the BWB darius_sedai - 12/02/2012 01:48:58 AM 688 Views
Quote found darius_sedai - 12/02/2012 01:35:58 AM 556 Views
My thoughts Nolan - 05/02/2012 10:14:59 PM 779 Views
The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills. *NM* Great Lord of Chaos - 06/02/2012 02:38:36 AM 399 Views
I wonder if it'd possible to open gateways based on the memories of a previous incarnation? *NM* mogi67 - 07/02/2012 09:56:25 PM 354 Views
except for Rand/LTT and Birgitte, I get the impression that people don't have memories of past lives *NM* LadyLorraine - 08/02/2012 02:38:00 AM 312 Views
Re: How did Travelling become a lost Talent? Simon - 13/02/2012 12:24:35 PM 726 Views
a few more other factors Yunalesca - 15/02/2012 08:22:02 PM 567 Views
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