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I'll have to disagree with much of this Sidious Send a noteboard - 03/11/2012 07:46:31 AM
My main issue with Linda's list is the Forsaken occupy so many Levels 16-21 which seems very unlikley to me. IMO the Forsaken level Channelers all occupy Levels 20-21 and that these levels would occupy the top 85% of Strength/Effectiveness.

Well yes, I would agree that the weakest Forsaken are at about 85% (except Moghedien)and that the strongest are at 100%, but I would suggest that there are three levels. Remember, if we never knew about Cyndane we would assume that there are the strong Forsaken, like Lanfear, and weaker ones like Mesaana, so we'd have two levels. But we do have Cyndane, and we know that she can fit in between Lanfear and Graendal, which proves that these other levels probably do exist. We also know that six women exist who exceed Nynaeve in power, and based on the quotes Graendal should probably be one of them - meaning that there are three levels above Nynaeve. I would agree though that Nynaeve is 90% as strong as anyone.

Egwene level at 19 and Cadsuane 18 etc....

This I will never agree on. Egwene is far weaker than the Forsaken level channelers. We know this, you just don't want to believe it. Egwene makes two statements in Salidar...

1. She is unsure how she would fare against a Forsaken even linked with Romanda and Lelaine.
2. Nynaeve is the only woman in Salidar who can face the Forsaken.

The proportionality is obvious. IMO Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene, and my educated guess is in the region of 30%. We even know that women exist who are stronger than Egwene, like Tamela and Viendre, who are not of Forsaken power like Nynaeve is.

I like the methodology you've applied, but I feel like having a Forsaken level channeler being that much weaker than the top (30%+) ... Moghedien and Mesaana would never have stood a chance as top tier Forsaken, and even Semirhage would be on the cusp due to her lower power level and never would have made it into the "elite top 6". We know they were willing to destroy each other during the WoP so the least skilled and the least powerful would have ended up either dead or as part of one of the major Forsaken's "staff". Why would Semirhage, one of the very top in the Forsaken hierarchy, create an alliance with a woman so much weaker who was also lower than her on the hierarchy AND not just make her a minion? Mesaana at 25% or more weaker than Lanfear, and as a less than skilled (by Forsaken standards) would never have risen so high. During the WoP she would have been a nice 2nd in command to Semirhage if she was that much weaker, but no way would she "match up closely" as she herself thinks ... even if that is delusional, she's not stupid enough to think she could take on a more skilled and significantly stronger opponent and hope to survive.


That is why I believe that all of the Forsaken are within 15% of strength of Ishamael/Lanfear. If not, they would have been killed. Mesaana is probably on 85%. Moghedien, IMO, is sitting at 70% or so. She states that in the AOL she was considered too weak to be a threat until she actually killed the person. That is prima facie evidence that the gap between her and higher powers is considerable. We also know that she never attended Forsaken meetings in the series until she was mindtrapped, and then she was under Moridin's protection. She most likely suspected assassination and therefore had to spy on the meetings with subtlety.

Even Moiraine's level has experienced no issues with any given weave in terms of strength. Which again makes me think of them as significantly powerful, at the least I think they are the mid-way point of maximum strength, which would mean 50% of all women can perform ANY weave from the AoL with her own natural strength ... Which seems reasonable to me.

Moiraine still shows fallibility. She becomes faint when she uses large amounts of the Power for Earth/Fire. She also relies on an angreal for large parts of the first half of the series. I think by the time you get to Egwene's strength you show little deficiency with saidar.

On my scale Lanfear can channel 441 "units" of saidar, Graendal at 98% can channel 432, Nynaeve 423, Egwene 352, Cadsuane 330, Moiraine 220, Vandene/Adeleas 106 and Daigian 71 ... Morgase would be 4 "units" ... Rand, assuming from RJs comments that there are "several levels of strength men have on top of women", could channel 625 "units" of saidin, but still have an effective strength that is equal to Lanfear. So a woman like Egwene is probably like 55% of Rand's RAW strength, but in reality is about 80% as effective as he (or Lanfear) is, when both are at full potential and assuming equal training.


Egwene is much too strong. Egwene + Romanda/Lelaine should equal Lanfear's strength. Egwene x2 should be about 120% of Lanfear's strength.

Lanfear would be significantly stronger than Egwene here, she would equal Egwene paired with a weaker Sister like Siuan at her new strength 90ish. To face a Male Forsaken Egwene would indeed have to link with both Romanda and Lelaine to have any chance against a male such as Rand ... linking bonuses aside they'd only have about a 15% strength advantage on my scale.

If Egwene thinks that Nynaeve can face one of the Forsaken, then we have to assume that in a circle with Romanda and Lelaine she is close to high Forsaken strength, not above it.
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I'll have to disagree with much of this - 03/11/2012 07:46:31 AM 713 Views
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