Active Users:320 Time:13/05/2024 10:43:31 PM
Hmm... Sidious Send a noteboard - 04/11/2012 07:08:04 AM
which consistently leads you to miss that there are "current" strength quotes and "potential" strength comments. Certainly there are quotes that make Elayne seem much weaker than Nynaeve, but when you look at the timeline and related quotes about her current level you can clearly see how skewed this viewpoint is.

You have an excellent grasp of the broad series, but lacking the ability to quote the series correctly and missing the concept that there are 2 years of chronology that are weighted heavily toward the first 5 books you consistently bring in quotes from TSR or TFoH that speak of a character's CURRENT strength and seem to think that because there was 10 years in real world time that there was a long time between the timelines of the books. Nynaeve for instance, faced Moghedien before she reached her full potential. However, she had been actively Channeling (block or no) for well over a year at that point in the series ... given that she was already as strong as Siuan/Moiraine in EoTW without ever Channeling with her own knowledge and then being Forced for a year it follows that she would have gained in the ballpark of 85-90% of her maximum potential in the year+ related to the Tower.

We hear from Moiraine in New Spring that she gained strength at a pretty steady pace for 6 years, and was clearly well more than 2/3 of her Potential when she gained the Shawl (based on various women she thinks should defer to her), but that it would take several more years for her to attain her full strength. It seems obvious that women gain the greater part of their strength while training and being Forced to at least a tiny degree ... meaning active training is inherently Forcing compared to no training at all ... Nynaeve slowly gained strength as a Wilder for about 10 years prior to the series, then she started getting active training, which was far more Forceful than the typical Accepted as she had skipped her Novice training and the AS were all stunned by her potential. She is further Forced by her time fighting the Seanchan, and thus had gained the bulk of her strength by the time she faced Moghedien. Now in the few months between her Moghedien fight and meeting Alivia she probably gained a little more strength, but she has not been Forced abnormally in this time and her strength attainment would have slowed considerably. Then she heads to the Cleansing and in all likelihood was pushed to her full potential.

Egwene's story isn't much different, she was about normal for a Novice (in terms of how strong she was) when she left the Tower with Liandrin. Then was Forced in the extreme by the Seanchan and was pushed to Moiraine's strength by the end of TDR. As we see in TSR she is slightly stronger than Moiraine. A few months later she is still being Forced by the much more progressive training methods of the WO and competing with Aviendha and has gained the bulk of her strength, but once she hits the AS camp she would have slowed her strength attainment significantly. Once captured and in the Tower she is obviously Forced for a couple of months despite the forkroot. By TGS/ToM she is likely at full potential.

Elayne, however, does not have such Forcing. She is treated much more conservatively as DH in her early stages in the Tower, and Nynaeve does what she can to hold her back while on Toman Head. By the beginning of TSR Elayne is nowhere close to Egwene in strength, as evidenced by the fact that at the end of TSR Elayne is still much weaker than Moiraine (she is surprised that she can lift a single woman with Air, while Moiraine can lift 3x her body weight). Elayne's primary strength attainment takes place on the road from Tanchico to Salidar. By the time she gets there in TFoH she is around Moiraine level (she notes that she can lift a cauldron that "most" full Sisters could not have moved) ... she is likely a little weaker than Moiraine at this stage. By the time she leaves Ebou Dar she is clearly stronger than any AS except for Cadsuane and she and Aviendha are about equal as they each participate in the BoTW circle. It's very possible that she has stronger potential than Tamela and Viendre who she comments on while well shy of her own full potential. No way to know on that one. Once she is pregnant her strength attainment would be more akin to what Nynaeve experienced while blocked, but she is also not being Forced at this point so she is not gaining strength rapidly and is likely no more than 75% of her potential. Which squares with the general level you and Sidious place her at (roughly 60), but she has a long way to grow still as we see in ToM when she is observing Egwene's Wards and is clearly impressed with the Skill if nothing else.

Rand, however, is a special case as he seems to be as strong as the Forsaken from nearly the very beginning. I think he's reverted back to this uncanny strength since his epiphany on DM ... he is now nearly limitless it seems and may well have been back in tEoTW before Ishamael began corrupting him. Rand seems to have gained only marginal amounts of strength since then as he faced and defeated Ishamael, Be'lal, Asmodean, Rahvin and Sammael. He was even Forced by Asmodean to a degree but never seems to be much less than maximum channeling strength. I think this is due to the corruption attempts Ishamael laid out. Otherwise The Dragon Reborn may well have been limitless throughout the series and thus would have been able to destroy the Forsaken with ease.

Now, why is this general timeline important? Because we have to factor in the current level of strength of these women when certain events take place. Naturally Elayne thinks how strong Rand is in the TSR, she and Egwene combined are not even half of her own full potential! She would have expected Rand's strength to be like her's and be at less than full potential. She is quickly disabused of this when he turns out to be as Strong as a Forsaken level Channeler already. Remember Elayne and Egwene were not witness to most of his moments facing Forsaken and would have no way of knowing how strong he really is ... only the battle in the sky v. Ishamael which they all thought was the DO/LB. Also consider that Elayne at something like 60% of her potential notes that with a weak angreal she can handle 2x Nynaeve's maximum (who is probably like 90% of potential). And with a very weak angreal while no more than 75% of her potential and not drawing on it fully she can fool the BA prisoners into thinking she is as powerful as one of the Forsaken.

You consistently talk as though Elayne and Aviendha are always at full potential when they are nowhere close to it. You are far too simplistic in your approach in figuring out strength. I have pieced together my strength estimates based on looking at how women grow over time, the amount of forcing they receive, direct quotes, author quotes and OP feats they can perform. Thus I am confident in my estimates. You and Sidious start out with how strong you think the Forsaken are and back your way into everyone else's strength with no regard to how close they are to full potential, or the authors own commentary on strength.


Maybe you should stop debating in this thread now. You've threatened to do it since the beginning. For some reason you've started with personal insults and silly jibes. Telling people that they don't know the series, don't know what a timeline is, have fantasies about characters - it's all a sign of very poor debating technique, and pretty bad manners too.

You have contempt for the way in which I and Shannow see things (which is not the same btw), but your own post above this has figures that you have thumbsucked to make your own system work. It's all very hypocritical.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
Addressing problems with the Bell Curve - 31/10/2012 11:30:42 AM 1388 Views
Who said RJ created a 100 point scale? I always assumed we did to make this easier to follow - 31/10/2012 02:22:51 PM 755 Views
One more point here - 31/10/2012 03:02:34 PM 650 Views
I've think I've finally done it. I've solved the entire Curve. Daigian is the key... - 01/11/2012 09:20:57 AM 869 Views
Did some playing with your numbers to make this work better - 01/11/2012 02:13:00 PM 818 Views
The Mean and SD are set by Daigian's position. Your options are therefore not possible... - 02/11/2012 07:49:24 AM 748 Views
Yet you have many more SD between the Mean and Lanfear than you do Morgase and the Mean - 02/11/2012 02:39:51 PM 641 Views
I absolutely agree. The lower side of the curve MUST be intersected by zero after 1 SD... - 02/11/2012 03:03:52 PM 547 Views
I am not convinced Moiraine is the Mean. Merely 50% of Lanfear - 02/11/2012 04:23:57 PM 680 Views
But on a Bell Curve the Mean IS 50% of Lanfear. You've just disproven your own contention. - 02/11/2012 04:40:31 PM 617 Views
OMG no it is NOT! - 02/11/2012 05:16:36 PM 569 Views
I agree with that. But please honestly look at the math I presented. It disproves the Bell Curve. - 02/11/2012 05:24:41 PM 842 Views
It doesn't matter that you think the BC is disproved. - 02/11/2012 06:07:19 PM 664 Views
Confusing post... - 02/11/2012 06:30:40 PM 705 Views
Dreadlord is essentially describing a lognormal distribution - 02/11/2012 07:21:39 PM 616 Views
If you choose to ignore the author go right ahead. I just think you are wrong - 02/11/2012 09:05:14 PM 740 Views
A non-linear 21 point scale is fine... - 02/11/2012 11:02:48 PM 771 Views
I've been operating off of the scale I described for years - 02/11/2012 11:25:27 PM 645 Views
Re: It doesn't matter that you think the BC is disproved. - 02/11/2012 07:11:57 PM 643 Views
Not true - 02/11/2012 08:52:42 PM 688 Views
Re: Not true - 03/11/2012 09:19:11 AM 660 Views
Read my other posts - 03/11/2012 04:19:15 PM 522 Views
Not quite - 03/11/2012 08:02:05 AM 651 Views
I think it's about skill not strength - 03/11/2012 04:38:07 PM 545 Views
I think the number is about 10 - 03/11/2012 08:42:08 AM 709 Views
Nope - 03/11/2012 04:14:45 PM 656 Views
Re: Nope - 03/11/2012 04:39:07 PM 683 Views
Verin and Graendal each have angreal of unkown strength - 03/11/2012 06:15:49 PM 558 Views
Re: Verin and Graendal each have angreal of unkown strength - 03/11/2012 10:15:10 PM 680 Views
*shrugs* - 03/11/2012 10:25:18 PM 584 Views
Re: *shrugs* - 04/11/2012 07:12:21 AM 782 Views
You have 4 markers and you should use them all - 10/11/2012 03:08:37 PM 501 Views
Indeed - 10/11/2012 03:59:51 PM 655 Views
Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve - 01/11/2012 06:23:07 PM 682 Views
Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve - 01/11/2012 09:48:04 PM 663 Views
Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve - 02/11/2012 09:02:58 PM 688 Views
Re: Addressing problems with the Bell Curve - 02/11/2012 09:56:50 PM 768 Views
I'll have to disagree with much of this - 03/11/2012 07:46:31 AM 712 Views
Why do you always think Strength is the point - 03/11/2012 04:35:26 PM 487 Views
I don't - I merely appreciate it as a factor - 03/11/2012 04:48:24 PM 577 Views
0 Evidence? Cyndane v. Alivia is plenty of evidence EDIT with exact quote - 03/11/2012 06:17:39 PM 587 Views
One other thing you have forgotten about - 03/11/2012 10:13:09 PM 587 Views
Your agenda blinds you to logic yet again...As I'll simply demonstrate with your example here... - 03/11/2012 11:08:13 PM 656 Views
Nope, the only experience she has in reality is against Rand - 03/11/2012 11:09:54 PM 551 Views
Nonsense. - 03/11/2012 11:11:05 PM 585 Views
Believe as you will - 03/11/2012 11:26:50 PM 743 Views
That's a classic. - 04/11/2012 12:06:13 AM 614 Views
You misquote on a regular basis and have no grasp of the timeline in the series - 04/11/2012 01:36:37 AM 481 Views
Hmm... - 04/11/2012 07:08:04 AM 807 Views
stop getting all indignant ... I'm really not trying to be nasty to you - 04/11/2012 04:20:06 PM 623 Views

Reply to Message