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Re: I don't think that's likely Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM
Demandred isn't the pinnacle of what an Aes Sedai could be in the AOL, and that doesn't even stem from his treachery. It starts because we now know conclusively that Lews Therin himself was no angel, and probably not at all as grand as we were led to believe. He was a lesser accomplished form of a flawed individual, despite all his strengths. There are third age characters with ten times the strength of character as Lews Therin or Demandred.


I fully agree.

Bel Medar and LTT appear not all that removed from this Age's Aes Sedai.

Both are gifted in the OP, but not in the Nynaeve/Semirhage ways, with one outstanding Talent that defined their career path.

Both appear to be scholars, or at least intellectuals, and both were power-obsessed politicians, who made a career rising through the hierarchy of the Aes Sedai Guild, as close to the top as they managed to. LTT was an artist. Both of them were writers, and for all we know they were novelists, not big time OP (they'd have been at the Collam Daan if they were) or political essayists! The whole society was deeply aesthetic, centered on its pleasures, and obsessed with gaining status.. you get the feeling that for many AS the primary motivation to serve was to shine enough to gained the status a third name gave an individual. There were AS like Moghedien and Balthamel not that interested in their ability, nor service. It's what Graendal denounced by making herself an abstemious ascete them turning into a caricature of the wost of AOL society.

Looking at Nynaeve's discoveries, you even get the feeling perhaps the AOL era before the Collapse had long been nearly stagnating, the greatest discoveries far in the past and the OP scholars more interested in competition between them then anything. Cliques everywhere.

The pre-WOS relations and situations of LTT/Bel Medar might not have been all that different, on a different scale of OP knowledge and sophistication of politics, than those of Elaida. Status, power, political bickering, lavish palaces, trophy wives.

The WOS woke them up. They accomplished great things, but LTT became more and more tyranical and stubborn, and Bel Medat ended up switching side.

No doubt Bel Medar is a genius of strategy and this will play out a lot, but indeed we have all signs he's not that great or brave physically and he hates getting his hands dirty. He's no daring soldier who will duel Rand, he's one of those backroom generals. A genius one. Demandred sounds much closer to a more competent Rhavin or Be'lal than a Sammael. As far as we can tell, Sammael is more comparable to LTT in personality.

RJ seems to have made Demandred into a kind of exagerated dark mirror of himself: RJ had a scholarly (scientific) background, got conscripted as a soldier, is a military-history buff and weapon collector, and after Vietnam he became a popular writer. And in his AOL, writers and artists could become politicians (well, there's Reagan...).

Demandred was an intellectual, writer and military-history buff who was forced to become a general.


Indeed.

It's all very odd. These Forsaken know each other from the AOL (speaking of lounging about in the Ansaline Gardens), and the community seems so small - Lews Therin was personal friends with some of the Forsaken, he dated Mierin, Demandred wanted Ilyena. It's all very 'inbred' if you ask me.

It seems like the social circles were indeed small, highly hierarchical and very cliquey. In many ways I'm reminded of the Hall and the various ajahs. Mesaana probably didn't have to bend her imagination too far. I think the flaws of the AOL are obvious to anyone who's really studied the series. It was no utopia, and the focus on getting a third name could easily be shifted to the focus of getting the third name. It's even likely that people without third names couldn't enter various social circles (Lews Therin calling Moiraine a Little Sister says so much about him - he actually sounds like Rahvin at that point). As readers even we can fall into the 'Age of Legends' trap.

While absolutely not defending the Shadow at all, I can completely see why some of the Forsaken turned. If one looks at Lanfear, you can see to what lengths she was prepared to go to get a third name and the result. It's no coincidence that the greatest philosopher started ranting about destructive theories and wrote books such as the Absence of Meaning, or that the world's great ascetic turned into a perversion, or that the great Healer defiled her own profession. Mesaana may have truly had significant talent for academia and the 'unsuited to research' is what broke her - the Collam Daan could certainly have been a cesspool of snooty academics who accepted people more on whim and less on ability.

I don't even think its impossible that Demandred and Lews Therin could have been interchangeable had the situations been slightly different. The AOL seems to have been a breeding ground for intense jealousy and an almost rabid desire to compete and see who could develop the most, the fastest. With everyone of importance living for several centuries, the stagnation would have been palpable.
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[Mik's Warp] - Demandred is.....*click to find out* - 05/11/2012 01:06:42 PM 3264 Views
There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 05/11/2012 02:10:07 PM 1724 Views
Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 08:29:53 PM 1587 Views
Re: Nah.. forget that - 05/11/2012 10:07:46 PM 1444 Views
Re: There are only 2 months left before AMOL comes out (or less)... - 06/11/2012 12:40:54 PM 1616 Views
I'm not saying it's not a well-reasoned theory; it is. - 06/11/2012 06:02:36 PM 1655 Views
I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 06/11/2012 11:01:28 PM 1557 Views
Re: I say Roederan is a better choice simply because of where he is located - 07/11/2012 09:42:00 AM 1807 Views
I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 04:48:17 PM 1463 Views
Re: I applaud your effort, but to be honest I just can't see it - 07/11/2012 08:36:34 PM 1715 Views
There has been a lot of waste in WOT..... - 06/11/2012 06:26:56 PM 1382 Views
LIKE! *NM* - 09/12/2012 02:37:49 PM 1326 Views
Whoops *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:27:06 PM 832 Views
Plausible, albeit antilclimactic *NM* - 05/11/2012 06:32:38 PM 912 Views
Unless Mat is Demandred, at this point it will be anticlimactic. *NM* - 06/11/2012 04:02:38 AM 838 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:30 PM 857 Views
That would be EPIC *NM* - 06/11/2012 07:53:31 PM 845 Views
You've tried too hard... - 05/11/2012 07:53:41 PM 3348 Views
Will be so disappointed if the Shadow's greatest (non-crazy) leader is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 05/11/2012 08:57:59 PM 1562 Views
I doubt Mat will kill him personally but - 05/11/2012 09:24:48 PM 1353 Views
I don't know - 06/11/2012 02:01:41 AM 1385 Views
My prediction of how it plays out... - 06/11/2012 07:12:15 AM 1439 Views
I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 06:04:55 PM 1454 Views
LOL ... it will be a saying in the next Age - 06/11/2012 10:36:04 PM 1343 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 06/11/2012 11:21:21 PM 1410 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 08:14:28 PM 1491 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 07/11/2012 09:05:07 PM 1623 Views
Re: I don't think that's likely - 08/11/2012 05:52:16 PM 1411 Views
It sounds like we're at the same stage of vision of the AOL - 08/11/2012 07:48:17 PM 1392 Views
Statistics refute some of that... - 09/11/2012 07:35:59 AM 1373 Views
We're not talking about the same things... - 09/11/2012 11:31:12 PM 1352 Views
It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 09/11/2012 11:43:26 PM 1524 Views
Re: It doesn't mean no one in this Age can be at Talented or Intelligent. - 10/11/2012 07:34:34 AM 1438 Views
You seriously believe that? - 10/11/2012 04:17:09 PM 1417 Views
Mat has grown quiet a bit since those days - 06/11/2012 01:55:48 AM 1530 Views
You're putting the Evil on a pedestal. - 06/11/2012 03:12:38 AM 1272 Views
No, just desperately trying to raise the stakes a bit... - 06/11/2012 07:00:59 AM 1446 Views
That's essentially what I was saying - 06/11/2012 03:35:45 PM 1548 Views
hmmm - 06/11/2012 10:27:00 AM 1760 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:02 PM 1539 Views
Mat is essentially the man (men) who wrote the books Demandred studied - 06/11/2012 10:42:40 PM 1336 Views
Exactly... - 06/11/2012 11:45:36 PM 1535 Views
... is defeated by Mr Happy Go Lucky - 06/11/2012 08:45:29 PM 1565 Views
I didn't try hard at all; Demandred found me... - 06/11/2012 03:31:41 PM 1607 Views
My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 06/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1475 Views
Re: My biggest contention with Demandred being with the Sea Folk - 07/11/2012 12:07:02 AM 1558 Views
Well, it instantly gives the Shadow access to attacking every coastal city... - 07/11/2012 10:32:23 AM 1447 Views
Exactly! - 07/11/2012 10:54:14 AM 2084 Views
If he married Nynaeve and Moiraine he'd have his wives at Rand's side in the Pit too.... - 07/11/2012 03:28:38 PM 1506 Views
I find that approach unnecessarily convoluted. Just hit them with 1 billion Trollocs and crush them. - 08/11/2012 07:00:36 AM 1428 Views
Not likely he has that many... - 08/11/2012 03:00:32 PM 1372 Views
May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 05:28:41 PM 1347 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 08/11/2012 10:35:38 PM 1429 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 12:09:15 AM 1379 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 03:11:59 AM 1375 Views
LOL ... Seems more than a little far fetched *NM* - 10/11/2012 06:17:34 AM 793 Views
Well you asked for an explanation - 13/11/2012 10:23:41 PM 1275 Views
fair enough *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:31:52 AM 755 Views
Re: May I ask some practical questions? - 10/11/2012 07:15:58 PM 1394 Views
Exactly! - 11/11/2012 07:38:46 AM 1398 Views
Good practical questions... - 09/11/2012 07:24:14 AM 1429 Views
He doesn't need the SF for that - 09/11/2012 03:00:34 PM 1209 Views
Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 02:57:16 PM 1243 Views
Re: Well, they hadn't planned on them being Traveling grounds as they didn't know about - 09/11/2012 09:03:14 PM 1378 Views
I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 09/11/2012 11:57:34 PM 1320 Views
Re: I know. I'm saying they were not doing this with Traveling in mind. - 10/11/2012 10:08:04 PM 2912 Views
I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 11/11/2012 07:45:19 AM 1411 Views
Re: I see what you are getting at ... And I see how Zaida used it to her advantage - 12/11/2012 02:57:08 PM 1437 Views
Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 04:11:50 PM 1453 Views
Re: Nesta sent 2 ambassadors to the Coramoor. Both looking for the same thing - 12/11/2012 06:01:33 PM 1559 Views
Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 06:51:24 PM 1621 Views
Re: Well there is also the fact that Harine pretty much tells us she MUST make a Bargain - 12/11/2012 09:30:57 PM 1395 Views
Not to belabor the point - 12/11/2012 10:56:39 PM 1291 Views
Re: Not to belabor the point - 13/11/2012 12:46:21 AM 1315 Views
I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 01:24:35 AM 1252 Views
Re: I think you are way off base on the economics - 13/11/2012 03:48:40 PM 1367 Views
no reason to *NM* - 14/11/2012 01:35:55 AM 771 Views
I don't see the problem... - 07/11/2012 10:52:49 AM 2219 Views
This is preposterous - 07/11/2012 04:15:11 PM 1851 Views
Who? - 06/11/2012 07:29:46 PM 1347 Views
Paah, he's clearly on the Isle of Madmen to the south. - 10/11/2012 03:28:26 AM 1756 Views

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