Active Users:526 Time:04/08/2026 04:52:33 AM
The more I look at this the more I think you are both right and wrong darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 12/01/2016 09:02:57 PM

I think the sticking point I keep coming to is the question of "what is effective strength"

I think you've done an exceptional job of piecing together a general mapping of power levels and where an individual should fall in terms of comparative effectiveness, but overall I keep coming back to things that throw the proverbial monkey wrench into the thought that effectiveness even exists.

Let's consider some of the thoughts here:

  1. Quantity of strength and Dexterity always equal each other out. Honestly I think this is a huge problem that RJ created because it implies that the strongest man is roughly equal to the strongest woman because RJ noted that there was nothing that could be accomplished with one side of the power that the other side could not match to the same degree. However, there is nothing to say that Lanfear can do everything to the same degree that Ishamael could do (or vice-versa). Only that if an effect of xx intensity could be accomplished by any channeler usingsaidinthen there was a channeler usingsaidarthat could match the effect. Thus we have Naeff who with less strength can match Nynaeve in effects related to Air.

  2. Flow strengths are ignored in all of these effectiveness models. Again, we have no sense of Lanfear or Semirhage's or Alivia's flow affinities and it's probable that Graendal has great strength in Spirit, thus her skill with Compulsion. No one has ever even come close to matching Egwene's affinity for Earth, but it's clear that there is a male equivalent out there somewhere, but his strength level seems utterly unrelated to his potential ability to make Cuendillar to the degree that Egwene can. He could be a level ++1 male or he could be a level 66 male or anything in between for all we know.

  3. Talents are also ignored in effectiveness scales. Look at Healing. We know that Semirhage has a dramatically powerful Talent, but does that automatically mean that only a ++1 male with an equal Talent can match her? Or, as we see with Androl, is it possible for a very weak male with a dramatic Talent to match the effectiveness of Semrihage's Healing? Traveling is one that often gets used as an example to compare relative strength, but I think it's obvious that there is simply a minimum amount of OP (eithersaidinorsaidar) to accomplish the weave. The Talent then determines the size or ability to position or block the gateway etc... Nynaeve has shown a relative lack of effectiveness in Shielding, despite her great strength.

  4. Skill. It's seems clear that Moghedien and Asmodean are the least skilled in the OP of the Forsaken, I believe that would make her less effective than Be'lal even though they are in theory at the same level of relative ability just as I think Asmodean would not be nearly as effective as Graendal despite what should be parity.

So basically I think your effective strength levels are pretty accurate, but only in a very broad sense. In general a Level 1 woman should be as effective as a Level ++1 man, but there are likely massive swings in what each could accomplish based on flow affinities and Talents. In kind I think it's very possible for a (as an example) Level 3 woman of great skill and multiple flow affinities to be far more effective than a Level ++1 male who perhaps was less skilled or possessed weakness in some flows.


Character effective strengths are therefore: ((66 - character level + 1) x 1.5)

100 - Ishamael, Rand, Rahvin, Lanfear, Semirhage, Alivia

98.5 - Demandred, Aginor, Sammael, Sharina, Talaan, Graendal, Mesaana, Cyndane, Logain.

97 - Asmodean, Balthamel, Graendal, Nynaeve

95.5 - Moghedien, Someryn, Be'lal

88.5 - Egwene, Elayne

87 - Cadsuane

84 - Aviendha

81 - Moiraine, Elaida, Siuan, Romanda, Lelaine

72 - Berenicia (minimum level to effectively Travel)

48 - Siuan (post-stilling)

33 - Daigian

15 - Sorilea (and minimum strength to lift a feather with Air)

1.5 - Moiraine (post Finns)


personally I think you'd have to re-rank this for each flow and for each Talent to get a true sense of effectiveness (which is inherently situational IMO)

so it would hypothetically look like this:

Healing

100 Semrihage, Nynaeve
90 Samitsu, Damer
50 Moiraine
10 Egwene, Elayne

Earth

100 Egwene
70 Leane

Air

100 Naeff

Spirit

100 Graendal

Traveling

100 Androl
90 Rand, Semirhage
80 Logain

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 12/01/2016 at 09:06:37 PM
Reply to message
One Power strength: let's play with numbers - 18/12/2015 01:09:06 PM 4813 Views
Actually, I largely agree - 18/12/2015 03:33:27 PM 1417 Views
Yup ... note how silent he's been since the Companion came out *NM* - 18/12/2015 05:50:44 PM 773 Views
I've been silent because the Companion is a joke and hardly worth pointing out all the errors... - 19/12/2015 09:37:53 AM 1469 Views
Clearly there are mistakes in the Companion - 19/12/2015 03:28:49 PM 1426 Views
- 19/12/2015 05:52:29 PM 1313 Views
It is easy to accept the Companion. All you have to do is reject the evidence in the books. - 19/12/2015 06:58:41 PM 1436 Views
No... - 19/12/2015 08:59:58 PM 1386 Views
And let's not forget Mylen - 21/12/2015 09:07:27 PM 1474 Views
Splitting flows: the Great Aes Sedai mixup - 22/12/2015 01:34:54 AM 2101 Views
Re: Splitting flows: the Great Aes Sedai mixup - 22/12/2015 06:05:02 AM 1661 Views
I have a theory on why - 23/12/2015 05:26:52 PM 1204 Views
Re: I have a theory on why - 24/12/2015 09:44:44 AM 1283 Views
How I see Traveling... - 24/12/2015 11:35:30 PM 1325 Views
Re: How I see Traveling... - 26/12/2015 10:43:13 AM 1321 Views
Re: How I see Traveling... - 29/12/2015 02:34:58 AM 1318 Views
Re: How I see Traveling... - 30/12/2015 07:41:43 AM 1526 Views
Re: How I see Traveling... - 01/01/2016 08:33:34 PM 1332 Views
Some thoughts - 20/12/2015 09:29:28 AM 1356 Views
My response to your thoughts... - 20/12/2015 07:19:15 PM 1513 Views
My thoughts on your thoughts - 21/12/2015 02:34:38 PM 1248 Views
Re: My thoughts on your thoughts - 21/12/2015 08:55:40 PM 1302 Views
Re: Some thoughts - 22/12/2015 06:21:41 PM 1500 Views
No palpitations here ... I pretty much agree with all of this *NM* - 18/12/2015 05:50:08 PM 736 Views
Well this is inconvenient - 19/12/2015 07:38:30 AM 1266 Views
hahaha - 19/12/2015 03:09:41 PM 1293 Views
Moraine and Siuan level in NS - 30/12/2015 02:13:05 AM 1264 Views
Here are my thoughts - 30/12/2015 06:29:02 AM 1299 Views
They were the same strength... - 30/12/2015 06:55:18 AM 1321 Views
Thanks - 30/12/2015 07:44:22 AM 1204 Views
Not really strange... - 30/12/2015 08:02:04 AM 1343 Views
Siuan was also a wilder, she was sent to TV when the spark manifested - 30/12/2015 03:50:17 PM 1302 Views
Not sure that works - 30/12/2015 07:17:27 AM 1346 Views
Part of this is also about an individual's personality - 30/12/2015 04:40:28 PM 1616 Views
Re: Part of this is also about an individual's personality - 30/12/2015 05:10:50 PM 1393 Views
Re: Part of this is also about an individual's personality - 30/12/2015 05:52:41 PM 1347 Views
Re: Part of this is also about an individual's personality - 30/12/2015 06:15:36 PM 1431 Views
Totally - 30/12/2015 06:46:14 PM 1413 Views
On Rand and Ishamael - 01/01/2016 09:20:35 PM 1257 Views
Re: On Rand and Ishamael - 02/01/2016 01:18:07 AM 1151 Views
True - 02/01/2016 05:39:12 AM 1345 Views
Re: True - 02/01/2016 07:52:33 PM 1249 Views
Re: True - 02/01/2016 10:56:39 PM 1291 Views
The more I look at this the more I think you are both right and wrong - 12/01/2016 09:02:57 PM 1355 Views

Reply to Message