The chaos the Forsaken are causing is causing the world to collapse and the DO to get stronger
Matrimony Cauthon Send a noteboard - 14/11/2009 07:48:05 AM
You are definitely right though... I would be interested to see how much the Pattern repaired itself after Rand balefired Graendal.
Guava made an interesting point too... The Dark One gave Demandred the order to let the Lord of Chaos rule. How much of the Dark One getting stronger in the world is the Forsaken causing chaos versus Rand causing chaos?
Guava made an interesting point too... The Dark One gave Demandred the order to let the Lord of Chaos rule. How much of the Dark One getting stronger in the world is the Forsaken causing chaos versus Rand causing chaos?
I'm still thinking Rand created a net positive effect because he got rid of someone that was causing so much chaos. If he hadn't gotten rid of her, she wouldn't have continued destabilizing the pattern. I don't think we can jump to the conclusion that what Rand was an evil thing so easily. I only wonder how much the pattern recovers after a balefire episode like the one Rand caused. Is it a permanent hole in the pattern, or a transient event that gets patched over fairly quickly?
Almost enough collateral damage to break the Pattern and let the DO win without a fight. Seems kind of evil to me.
As for the Borderlanders, you're missing the real reason he wanted to blast them. It wasn't because they had abandoned their post and were leaving their people to die, or that they were trying to trap Rand in a box. It was merely the fact that anyone would go against what he wished, that was why he was going to rain fire on them, not to kill them, but to teach them not to go against him. Seems pretty evil to me.
The threat to Cadsuane is also somewhat evil, there's no need for him to threaten her with death. I like how you want to gloss over the most evil of his acts, almost killing his father for no reason other than the fact that Cadsuane was the one who brought him in. Rand barely stops himself, and then almost goes off and does something as bad if not worse. He decided he was going to wipe out the Seanchan invasion using balefire and the CK. If he had actually gone through with his plans he likely would have unraveled the Pattern bringing about the DO's victory. Again his motivation to destroy the Seanchan is not to protect his flanks, but because they dared to not do exactly as he said when he said it.
Fortunately he still had that small voice somewhere in him that kept him from giving into the temptations and becoming truly evil. But to say that nothing he did was evil or imply that he wasn't on the path to win the Last Battle for the DO is incredibly short-sighted.
I am starting to get a little sick of this notion that Rand somehow went bad. Yes, he was a bit messed up in the head and made some bad choices, but what did he actually do that was so evil? He killed Graendal and there was collateral damage. Oh well. Too bad. He was playing it safe and not being foolhardy and charging in to warn her. He did not put those people in Graendal's place, so he is not responsible for their deaths. You have a perfect moral right to kill a human shield when it is an ordinary criminal who is merely trying to rob you. To get a Forsaken? Meh.
Almost enough collateral damage to break the Pattern and let the DO win without a fight. Seems kind of evil to me.
As for his threats regarding the Borderlands (why didn't he kill that guy pretending to be Hurin, BTW? The REAL Hurin would remember seeing and commenting on grolm in Falme), they had it coming. They were diserters displaying hostile intent and evading his own reasonable compromises in attempting to place him in an even more hostile and dangerous situation. They were palcing themselves in a hostile position, and had abandoned their duties, leaving Rand's friend and mentor to sacrifice himself doing their job. Rand might have forced himself not to care about Lan's potential death, but that does not mean it doesn't hurt him as much as it could. At this point Rand, for some pretty good reasons, has just about exhausted his toleration of hostile forces in his rear. No matter how noble their intentions, the Borderlanders did cross a line and ran smack into the consequences. They knew that such an end was extremely probable, and quite frankly, who the hell do they think they are? Rand owes them nothing. His whole reason for being is to do what they are incapable of. They should be approaching him in humility and thanksgiving, if they are really true to the Borderland ideal. Their ignorance of Rand & his true situation is not Rand's problem, anymore than Gawyn's misguided and unrelenting desire for revenge. If Gawyn tries to kill Rand, he has the perfect right to defend himself, and I doubt even the man's siblings would hold it against him if he did end up killing Gawyn. The Borderlanders are in the same situation. Rand cannot possibly find out the truth of their peaceful or noble intentions (if in fact they are so, instead of the whining of spoiled children who have not gotten the recognition they seek) without unreasonably endangering himself, and by extension, the cause of the Light. For a Borderlander to endanger that is about as close as they can come to blasphemy. Even if Rand HAD gone all the way and blasted them to death, they had it coming.
As for the Borderlanders, you're missing the real reason he wanted to blast them. It wasn't because they had abandoned their post and were leaving their people to die, or that they were trying to trap Rand in a box. It was merely the fact that anyone would go against what he wished, that was why he was going to rain fire on them, not to kill them, but to teach them not to go against him. Seems pretty evil to me.
The point of this, his killing of Semirhage and Elza and his threat to Cadsuane were all to show how much he had changed from who he used to be. And possibly Sanderson and/or Jordan might be moralizing idiots, but regardless of their opinions on the matter, aside from the first blow or whatever against Tam, he did not really do anything bad, and actually stopped himself the once or twice he almost did something evil.
The threat to Cadsuane is also somewhat evil, there's no need for him to threaten her with death. I like how you want to gloss over the most evil of his acts, almost killing his father for no reason other than the fact that Cadsuane was the one who brought him in. Rand barely stops himself, and then almost goes off and does something as bad if not worse. He decided he was going to wipe out the Seanchan invasion using balefire and the CK. If he had actually gone through with his plans he likely would have unraveled the Pattern bringing about the DO's victory. Again his motivation to destroy the Seanchan is not to protect his flanks, but because they dared to not do exactly as he said when he said it.
Fortunately he still had that small voice somewhere in him that kept him from giving into the temptations and becoming truly evil. But to say that nothing he did was evil or imply that he wasn't on the path to win the Last Battle for the DO is incredibly short-sighted.
This message last edited by Matrimony Cauthon on 14/11/2009 at 07:51:54 AM
Rand is NOT evil in tGS, nor does he do any evil
14/11/2009 12:26:27 AM
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That is nonsense...
14/11/2009 12:47:22 AM
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Re: That is nonsense...
14/11/2009 05:30:01 AM
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So what?
14/11/2009 09:28:49 AM
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Sorry... gotta disagree.
14/11/2009 01:09:30 AM
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Re: Sorry... gotta disagree.
14/11/2009 03:49:49 AM
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I disagree with prety much everything
14/11/2009 03:10:12 AM
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Wouldn't the Chaos Graendal was causing in Arad Doman be greater than the chaos Rand caused?
14/11/2009 04:11:48 AM
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nothing Graendal did almost caused the Pattern to collapse *NM*
14/11/2009 05:59:21 AM
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The chaos the Forsaken are causing is causing the world to collapse and the DO to get stronger
14/11/2009 07:48:05 AM
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Re: I disagree with prety much everything
14/11/2009 05:45:14 AM
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Why in the world is quantity irrelevant?
14/11/2009 06:01:13 AM
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A murderer is evil. What difference does it make how many? That's just degrees. There's no OK number
14/11/2009 07:22:47 AM
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Ok, let's take this a step further
14/11/2009 09:45:50 PM
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Rand has not yet crossed the moral event horizon of no return,
14/11/2009 03:27:22 AM
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Then he already passed the horizon by your reckoning. He DID choose to do those things.
14/11/2009 07:45:46 AM
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Then maybe we just have different standards.
14/11/2009 11:56:02 AM
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Why do you keep bringing up genocide? Rand was not doing that.
15/11/2009 01:02:23 AM
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To me, the Rules of War is nothing but a contract between parties.
15/11/2009 08:39:55 PM
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It's too late in the game to worry about followers. He has no further political agenda *NM*
19/11/2009 01:01:04 AM
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What Rand did that was evil.
14/11/2009 04:06:17 AM
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I don't see Arad Doman
14/11/2009 04:57:20 AM
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