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There are 21 levels, not 100. More later. *NM* fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 20/12/2009 07:23:18 PM
Let me start out by stating the various facts that we know for certain:

1. OP Strength follows a Bell Curve
2. Men are in general stronger than women
3. Lanfear is the strongest woman
4. Rand is the strongest man
5. Egwene is about as strong as Amys and Melaine combined
6. Daigian is the weakest AS
7. Siuan is now less than 50% of her original strength, but still strong enough to be AS
8. 37.5% of Channelers have enough strength to qualify as AS

Assumptions I've made:

1. There is one Bell Curve of distribution, but male and female strength have different scales (balanced by dexterity)... I'm trying to square effective and raw strength measures
2. There are 100 levels (just made the math easier)
3. Linking has a 10-15% penalty on raw strength

Okay so here we go...


Looking at a Bell Curve from 1-100 it's mathematical fact that 50 is the mean-median-mode. What we don't know is the unit of measure between each level on the scale. I've made an attempt to figure out how this could work and I think I've come somewhat close...

If we assume that each level for women allows for a woman to draw approximately 4 "units of saidar". Knowing that a man with the same effective strength also has more raw strength I applied a 25% increase to each "unit of saidin", thus each level for men adds 5 rather than 4. That would make our scale 4-400 for women and 5-500 for men, with Lanfear at 400 being as effective as Rand at 500. In effect we now have a 250 unit man and a 200 unit woman as the respective mean-median-mode yet both root back to 50 on the 100 point scale.

What does that leave us for levels?

If we assume Moiraine is a 50 (200), then it would in fact mean that in order to match Rand it would take 3 women of her strength to be roughly the raw power equivalent to the strongest male. It also squares with Siuan losing more than half of her overall strength and still remaining strong enough to be AS (if she lost 60% she would be about an 80 unit woman and probably right at the cusp of AS minimum).

Egwene would fall at about 320 (effective level 80), more than half Rand in Raw power, but linked with another woman her strength only a little stronger than him, close enough that he could still win a direct confrontation and shielding him would be an uphill battle. Also, linked with Romanda and Lelaine (200 each) still not enough stronger than a FS level male to be 100% certain of victory. Aviendha's assertion that Egwene is as strong as Amy's and Melaine combined is pretty close here if Amys is a 192 (level 48 ) and Melaine a 152 (level 38 ) she's pretty close if not 100% accurate.

Where does that place the "average AS", or even the majority of AS?

I'd say modern AS standards are low enough that a level 18 woman (Daigian) probably represents the lowest, but Level 20 being the more likely "minimum" ... which would be about where Siuan falls now if she lost 60% of her original strength.

Obviously we know that the majority of AS fall below the ranks of Melaine, so I'd venture the guess that 85% or more AS are between level 20 and level 35 ( 80-140) ... this matches up with comments about 13 weakest sisters could handle Rand as they would be more than 2x his raw strength... and even 6 weak sisters could probably maintain a shield on him once it was woven. And it still maps nicely to the 3 needed to hold Semirhage and 2 for Egwene.

So where do the Forsaken fall you ask? Well, on a Bell Curve they should all fall in the top few percent of available strength... which with units of measure added in, there are enough differences to account for the various levels and to account for the lack of outright fear in the top rungs.

Moghedien is clearly the weakest so I'd call her a 93 (372)

Asmodean is probably the weakest male and thus less effective than some of the stronger women I'd say he's a 95 (475)

Mesaana could be also be a 95 (380)

Be'lal/Balthamel seem to be the next males on the list probably 96 (480) or Mesaana could fall here (384)

Semirhage, Sammael, and Rhavin could be 97 (388 and 485) Nynaeve probably fits here.

Graendal and Aginor at 98 (392 and 490) and likely Sharina

Cyndane (Alivia) and Demandred are at 99 (396 and 495)

Lanfear/Ishamael and Rand at 100 (400 and 500)

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I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates - 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM 1573 Views
There are 21 levels, not 100. More later. *NM* - 20/12/2009 07:23:18 PM 603 Views
RJ has said a number of times that the 21 level scale - 20/12/2009 07:35:25 PM 957 Views
Few glaring errors... - 20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM 1134 Views
Re: Few glaring errors... - 21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM 1086 Views
You don't get it, do you... - 21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM 1069 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear? - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM 942 Views
That only strengthens my point. - 21/12/2009 06:23:39 PM 1006 Views
No it does not. - 28/12/2009 02:45:42 AM 1049 Views
What you are missing is that - 21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM 1006 Views
I'm not missing it at all.. - 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM 1036 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text - 22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1000 Views
Not correct... - 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM 1081 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence - 22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM 967 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong. - 22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM 979 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy - 22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM 979 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH - 20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM 1056 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range... - 20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM 1089 Views
Corrections - 21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM 1118 Views
No... - 21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM 1020 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM* - 21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM 714 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers - 21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM 951 Views
Perhaps... - 21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM 1066 Views
I've always hated bell curves - 21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM 1002 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average... - 21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM 1026 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve - 22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM 864 Views
Why? - 22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM 993 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the - 22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM 902 Views
Always go back to the evidence... - 22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM 1057 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this - 23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM 938 Views
Name an item you dispute and I will provide the quote.... - 23/12/2009 05:19:49 PM 943 Views
it's addressed below - 23/12/2009 05:23:58 PM 963 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments - 24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM 981 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem - 29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM 982 Views
Nice! It proves what I've been saying for ages... - 29/12/2009 10:13:41 PM 998 Views
Which is why I contend that they are about 80% of Lanfear - 29/12/2009 10:16:07 PM 987 Views
I wasn't trying to rip him a new one. - 22/12/2009 09:38:43 PM 877 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1031 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM 1024 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... - 22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM 1110 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength - 23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM 989 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM* - 23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM 533 Views
Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent? - 23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM 889 Views
It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough... - 23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM 997 Views
Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too - 23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM 1010 Views
Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM* - 23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 570 Views
LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing - 23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM 1066 Views
Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength... - 23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM 944 Views
The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work - 23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM 1119 Views
Beonin's Gateway - 23/12/2009 06:30:25 PM 978 Views
No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect! - 23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM 922 Views
Nope, Beonin shouldn't be that strong! - 23/12/2009 06:48:30 PM 907 Views
This is true, however... - 23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM 1051 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it... - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM 1430 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation - 23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM 1068 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule... - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM 917 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling - 23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM 914 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM* - 23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM 502 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? - 23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM 945 Views
And there you have it...Thank you. - 23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM 971 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine - 23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM 954 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM* - 23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM 508 Views
No more than yours is! - 23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM 956 Views
That entire passage is in the context of strength... - 23/12/2009 07:55:50 PM 861 Views
You need to re-read some of this stuff - 23/12/2009 11:01:15 PM 1068 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM 969 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM 984 Views
Goodness - 31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM 974 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author - 31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM 919 Views
Since you love Wiki so much - 31/12/2009 03:55:09 AM 922 Views
No you are not - 31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM 989 Views
Dude we're discussion works of fiction - 31/12/2009 04:08:12 AM 1042 Views
Dumb Bell Distribution of Mongoloid Turings - 31/12/2009 04:36:50 AM 1077 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this - 26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM 945 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution - 26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM 971 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't) - 31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM 994 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution - 31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM 960 Views
You are the one who is MIS-USING his statement - 31/12/2009 03:44:26 AM 946 Views
- 31/12/2009 03:48:20 AM 1223 Views
The pathos of Darius - 31/12/2009 04:26:15 AM 984 Views
Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) - 29/12/2009 12:46:13 AM 884 Views
Re: Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) - 29/12/2009 04:21:47 PM 970 Views

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