Active Users:342 Time:17/06/2025 11:49:21 AM
Your argument is irrelevant. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 24/02/2010 11:58:45 PM
You're still saying the same thing, only using a more palatable example. If there is no other way to obtain that sandwich, and given that having a sandwich is presumably better than not having a sandwich, especially if you're hungry, then the fact that the only way for him to obtain that sandwich was through war means that the war is justified, because he must do it to retrieve his sandwich.

The point is exactly what you said: there is no compelling reason for a war over a sandwich. But thanks to this line, you don't need one, the war justifies itself.

Of course, Lan is using it for a specific example where the lengths to which the Shadow are willing to go to in order to capture Rand, Mat and Perrin demonstrates that it is necessary to keep them out of the Shadow's hands. If the Shadow wants something that badly, then obviously the Light needs to keep it out of their hands.

But the problem is that he phrases that sentence as a general rule, not a specific case. And once you extrapolate what exactly such a rule entails, it's core insanity is revealed.


That is one of the stupidest straw-man arguments I have seen. Exactly why is there only one sandwich, and why does someone want just that one sandwich? Why not have some pizza?

The point is, in any hypothetical war over a sandwich, there is no "must". There is no compulsion to pay the price, and hence the sandwich is not worth a war.


Situations where there is actually no choice are exceedingly rare, and the situation Lan was in was not one of them. He did not have to keep the ta'veren from the Shadow. He did not have to bring them to Baerlon or the Stag and Lion. There are any number of hypothetical situations in which the Stag and Lion could have avoided burning, but they didn't, so Lan justifies the burning by saying that the fact that it burnt proves that it was a worthwhile sacrifice.

Likewise, there are any number of reasons why waging war over a sandwich is stupid. The example was selected precisely for its stupidity. However, applying the same logic as Lan used in his situation, after the war has been waged, the fact that thousands died justifies the war for the sandwich. Even though there were any number of alternatives. The argument is expressed after the fact to justify whatever you just did as having a worthy cause, as demonstrated by the price that had to be paid to achieve it.

Actually, now that I think about it it's like the argument for the existence of gods based on martyrs. It goes 'nobody would have endured so much suffering for a god that wasn't real, therefore their god is real'.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Reply to message
What were your biggest "WTF?" moments? - 24/02/2010 05:17:21 AM 1851 Views
Re: What were your biggest "WTF?" moments? - 24/02/2010 07:29:39 AM 1005 Views
I don't think you got what he said... - 24/02/2010 03:03:19 PM 992 Views
Re: I don't think you got what he said... - 24/02/2010 03:38:00 PM 757 Views
Can't agree with that. - 24/02/2010 05:33:01 PM 848 Views
Re: Can't agree with that. - 24/02/2010 06:40:24 PM 764 Views
But in Aviendha's case... - 24/02/2010 08:10:55 PM 703 Views
Re: But in Aviendha's case... - 24/02/2010 09:00:01 PM 657 Views
That's true. *NM* - 24/02/2010 11:51:03 PM 352 Views
So this is the last sandwhich? - 24/02/2010 11:43:37 PM 682 Views
Your argument is irrelevant. - 24/02/2010 11:58:45 PM 763 Views
No it isn't... - 25/02/2010 05:23:58 PM 669 Views
Re: No it isn't... - 25/02/2010 06:27:36 PM 802 Views
Re: No it isn't... - 25/02/2010 07:48:54 PM 648 Views
This debate about Lan's one liner has gone far too long. - 26/02/2010 04:49:45 PM 805 Views
Re: No it isn't... - 26/02/2010 06:44:10 PM 726 Views
Re: No it isn't... - 02/03/2010 06:34:59 PM 775 Views
WTF Moment - 24/02/2010 07:34:52 AM 884 Views
I don't get these - 24/02/2010 03:18:44 PM 1117 Views
These were I found surprising/confusing on my first read - 24/02/2010 03:52:12 PM 920 Views
If you think her "Magic Tight Rope Dancing Skills" were confusing - 24/02/2010 04:05:18 PM 972 Views
Indeed. I've learned a bit of juggling too (from same person) - 24/02/2010 04:19:40 PM 798 Views
Thom said he had the fastest hands he had ever seen - 24/02/2010 05:15:05 PM 800 Views
oh, well in that case it's totally plausible - 27/02/2010 12:50:47 PM 752 Views
Another from Mat: - 24/02/2010 05:06:15 PM 785 Views
Actually, this one is not so much - 24/02/2010 06:40:06 PM 840 Views
The most important thing to take away from this is... - 24/02/2010 07:00:18 PM 753 Views
A few: - 24/02/2010 03:27:56 PM 874 Views
Good ones. - 24/02/2010 03:54:37 PM 834 Views
To be fair. - 24/02/2010 05:26:34 PM 924 Views
Re: To be fair. - 24/02/2010 06:52:25 PM 698 Views
Re: What were your biggest "WTF?" moments? - 24/02/2010 03:49:44 PM 872 Views
Re: What were your biggest "WTF?" moments? - 24/02/2010 04:24:45 PM 833 Views
Re: What were your biggest "WTF?" moments? - 24/02/2010 04:34:27 PM 736 Views
Re: What were your biggest "WTF?" moments? - 24/02/2010 05:26:59 PM 717 Views
Re: What were your biggest "WTF?" moments? - 24/02/2010 06:33:50 PM 877 Views
Re: What were your biggest "WTF?" moments? - 24/02/2010 08:35:19 PM 678 Views
Re: What were your biggest "WTF?" moments? - 24/02/2010 08:54:34 PM 851 Views
Hmm... - 27/02/2010 09:55:59 AM 727 Views
realy? - 27/02/2010 12:53:05 PM 679 Views
My WTF - 27/02/2010 11:04:22 AM 732 Views
Good call. - 28/02/2010 07:22:47 AM 652 Views
In hindsight, just about everything from the frist 3 books - 27/02/2010 01:11:25 PM 825 Views

Reply to Message