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A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present Larry Send a noteboard - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
The planet was a key factor to the story and the power of deserts is what helped inspire the story but that doesn't mean the story was about deserts. Now I didn't read the entire 47 page interview so if there is some place there where he says it was about deserts please let me know. That would be a like saying Star Trek is about space ships because the ship is so important to the story. The story is about the people on the ship.


It's about the relationships between humans and the planetary environments. Herbert made it quite clear not just in that interview but throughout the first three novels at least that he was interested in the structures that affect things such as the development of religious, political, and social systems. Those are parts of the branch of ecology called human ecology.

Ecology played a major role in the story but I wouldn't call it a theme because there is no ecological message in the story, on the other hand there are messages about politics, religion and power.


Don't have to have a directly-stated "message" for there to be a theme; since politics, religion and power fall under the umbrella of (human) ecology in most definitions, it's hard to see what your complaint is, unless it's just a semantic quibbling.

In a 1980 interview with Omni Herbert said

"Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero... Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster." [1]

Also:

"I had this theory that superheroes were disastrous for humans, that even if you postulated an infallible hero, the things this hero set in motion fell eventually into the hands of fallible mortals. What better way to destroy a civilization, society or a race than to set people into the wild oscillations which follow their turning over their critical judgment and decision-making faculties to a superhero?"


Here's a set of definitions of ecology that places that Herbert comment in a better context:

e·col·o·gy (?-k?l'?-j?)
n. pl. e·col·o·gies

1.

1.

The science of the relationships between organisms and their environments. Also called bionomics.
2.

The relationship between organisms and their environment.
2.

The branch of sociology that is concerned with studying the relationships between human groups and their physical and social environments. Also called human ecology.

That is a theme


Yes, it is one theme. Another would be how political/social/religious institutions develop and how they are related to their environs and how these institutions shape and are shaped by what is around them. I seem to recall an observation in one of the first three books (one that I've seen echoed in several other places) that it is no surprise that the three dominant monotheistic religions on this planet today developed in steppe or desert-like environments. Several social practices are also affected by the surroundings and ways political power is structured (as Leto II and the Preacher discuss in Children of Dune) is based on practical consequences of physical surroundings.

I just see those causal relationships being part of an ecology, same as I would view modern-day political parties as being part of an ecological system. And those ecological structures and how they affect the narrative history seems to be a theme in the Herbert novels.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 2036 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 1137 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1338 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1264 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1259 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1315 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 1113 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 1175 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 1039 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 996 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 977 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 1122 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 1051 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 1029 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 1085 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 1026 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 1037 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 1138 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 1007 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 1004 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 914 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 1058 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 1151 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 1024 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 1020 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1526 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 502 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1203 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 1155 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1236 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1414 Views
I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series - 20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM 1166 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1344 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 1043 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1624 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1428 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1366 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1283 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 1046 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 450 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 454 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1335 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 1009 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 947 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 954 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 883 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 985 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 906 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 1101 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 1082 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 1059 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 945 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 1313 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 950 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 894 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 1193 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 925 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 1008 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 940 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1309 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 1114 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 1147 Views

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