Active Users:573 Time:02/08/2025 05:03:58 PM
There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers) RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM
No, I was purely using "Oedipus Rex" as an example because in the order of Sophocles' plays, "Oedipus Rex" (translated as Oedipus the King), lead to "Oedipus at Colonus" and was ended by "Antigone" as a tragic cycle. The order is very similar to "Dune", "Dune Messiah" and "Children of Dune"'s places in the overall series. The first trilogy is overall a tragedy, so I see many parallels, especially since Oedipus is blind for the entirety of "Oedipus at Colonus" similar to Paul's blindness and wanderings after a certain point in "Dune Messiah", as well as the idea that tremendous forces have to be confronted by Oedipus' progeny in the form of his daughter, Antigone, while it falls to Leto II to go further and do the hard work necessary to ensure the Golden Path is successful. Indeed you can look at "Dune" as being about what happens when a superbeing uniting male and female aspects is created - he didn't have an incestual relationship in the physical sense, but he understood his mother as his father did, and had access to those memories. As Jessica later says about Leto II and Ghanima when they reproduce those memories, "it was an Abomination" - she felt stripped bare before them with knowledge that no child should know firsthand. It is the gift of Jessica's heritage as a Bene Gesserit and genetic bloodlines that opened up the prescient abilities in the Atreides line.

But, yes, Aliah has prophetic powers in "Dune" and "Dune Messiah" - they are waning in the second book, though, which is why she started taking more massive dosages of spice and how she became an Abomination. She was not a full blown Kwisatz Haderach, which makes sense since she was to be the female Atreides that would have given birth to a Atreides/Harkonnen son that would have the full powers. This is alluded to in her early birth, where she already was being talked about by the other Fremen because she knew things that had not happened, yet, and already had the maturity of an adult. You might have missed this in "Dune", but she uses her limited prescient abilities to manifest thoughts into Mohiam's mind - she uses this to communicate with Paul:

Of all the uses of time-vision, this was the strangest. "I have breasted the future to place my words where only you can hear them," Alia had said. "Even you cannot do that, my brother. I find it an interesting play. And ... oh, yes — I've killed our grandfather, the demented old Baron. He had very little pain."

Also, in the training sequence where Alia is fighting the sword training mechanism, she remarks that she is now the match of about seven Ginaz swordmasters. Duncan himself never gave his rank, but the implication is that she has pursued the utmost physical capabilities of her prana-bindu training to exceed what he (and Paul) were capable of. This lead her to start exploring the Bene Gesserit forbidden controls of manipulating the aging process and etc. It is this same ultimate control that she uses to wrest muscular control from the Abomination of the Barons' control, and commit suicide.

Alia is an interesting character because F.H. gave hints of what she was capable of, showed the obvious evolution and did very well in following through on them throughout the trilogy without giving up all of her secrets. She comes across as a very relatable person at all steps of her sad journey.

I really love these characters and my affections have grown after multiple re-readings, especially having read Frank Herberts' biography and etc, and I can appreciate how he placed jewel-like "hints" as to real motivations throughout the series.

In the end, the series had a great resolution in "Chapterhouse", with each human now being fully "human".
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 22/04/2010 at 07:01:39 PM
Reply to message
Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1974 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 1092 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1277 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1207 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1208 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1259 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 1065 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 1100 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 977 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 943 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 925 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 1069 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 999 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 979 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 1018 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 968 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 998 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 1086 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 961 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 953 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 847 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 1004 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 1080 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 971 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 975 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1458 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 479 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1150 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 1107 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1173 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1356 Views
I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series - 20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM 1119 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1299 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 994 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1554 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1350 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1306 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1231 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 994 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 423 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 427 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1223 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 944 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 893 Views
There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers) - 22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM 893 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 897 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 816 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 938 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 824 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 1052 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 1018 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 991 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 903 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 1249 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 885 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 843 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 1124 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 859 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 933 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 889 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1234 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 1043 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 1084 Views

Reply to Message