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I think you're relying on math way too much to interpret the situation. Werthead Send a noteboard - 25/03/2011 08:48:32 PM
So by what standard do you judge too long or too short? For novels or anything? By your rationale we can't make any metaphysical claim about anything that works in grades. This is commonly known as the paradox of the heap, but also known as the fallacy of the heap, go wiki it. It's a logical fallacy. I personally think 3 years is pushing too long. If you're working 4 to 6 hour days, it shouldn't be extraordinarily hard to write a 300k word book in a year, two years if youre slow and the editing process was exhaustive. So considering his organizational problems, I think it should have taken 4 years (were he a normal hard working writer). I said 5 only to appease the Martin-sympathizer. So if it's 6.... there should be no room for consideration it's too long.


Let's try a different tack here. In theory, you are correct if you assume writing is a mechanical process. If Writer A (let us call him 'Erikson';) can write a 380,000-word novel in eight months, then Writer B (let us call him 'Martin';) should be able to write a 450,000-word novel in say one year. Since we know Writer A does not do multiple drafts but Writer B does, that means we can even give Writer B the time to completely rewrite the book once more from scratch and also write at half the speed of Writer A and he should still be done in four years tops (not even going into the fact that he had 100,000-odd words written, even if most or all of these were subsequently rewritten, at the start of the process).

Where the problem breaks down is that Martin is, by both his own admission and the reports of his agent and editors, a procrastinating perfectionist, and since the publication of AFFC has the financial freedom to indulge that procrastination. We are not talking about a second drafting pass or even three or four. We are talking about some chapters being rewritten, scrapped and written again a dozen times. We are talking about structural and timeline changes to the book multiple times, each of which required rewriting a large portion of the book. In fact, at various times Martin was months away from completion only to find one or more issues that, when fixed, triggered domino effects requiring the rewriting (and in some cases scrapping) of tens of thousands of words of material.

Essentially, it's the novel as chaos theory. In a more ideal circumstance Martin would have had a detailed outline (something else that a lot of faster writers have but Martin does not) which would have completely negated the whole situation. But he didn't.

Look, I'm not about to call RJ a liar. But I'm also not about to admit that he was completely honest about this process. I mean, this is the man who conceived of Aes Sedai...He said he felt ill on Memorial Day which led him to get a check up, which led to the diagnosis. Now maybe RJ was especially careful about his health and went in whenever he felt the slightest thing wrong. Personally, I saw him as someone who wouldn't take much thought to a little discomfort and keep writing. His pace had long slowed down to a book every two years, so that's a sign his stamina wasn't the same anymore. But most importantly, one does not develop a heart condition over night. You don't wake up, feel bad, go to the doctor, and get told that overnight you developed a serious heart condition. It's not as if he had a heart attack. We're talking about a condition that likely affected him for months before he was diagnosed if not years.


C'mon, this is guesswork and mere supposition. Since he says quite clearly that he did not suffer from his illness before that date and all you can produce against that is, "Erm, well, maybe he did and he didn't realise it, or something," I think we have to go with Jordan's own words on this one.

And his pace never slowed to one book every two years. He spent five years writing THE EYE OF THE WORLD and THE GREAT HUNT and was well into THE DRAGON REBORN before TEotW even came out. Publication caught up with him around Books 5-6 because he had a huge amount of lead time, and after that publication time slowed to match his writing time.

(1) Granting that Martin had huge structural issues...


Hang on, that explains a lot.

You're going by writing time alone, and are working on the assumption that every one of those words went straight into the book. So ADWD is 450,000 words long (plus maybe another 10-20,000 that have gone into THE WINDS OF WINTER), but every last one of those words has been gone over multiple times.

In discussions with GRRM, he claims that few chapters on the book have not been gone over at least 3 times. A few chapters (particularly those in the Meereenese Knote) have been written and rewritten a dozen times or more over. It doesn't take much mathmatical skill to realise that once you are taking half a million words and replicating that even just once or twice, the amount of work that has gone into the book is monumental (the same is true of Tolkien for that matter; the 400,000 words published in the novel is the product of probably twice that in drafts, false starts and abandoned plotlines, borne out in THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH series).

How many words have gone into ADWD to get to the 450,000 in it at the end? GRRM had no idea when I asked him, but it is at least twice that. If it's three or four, then you are talking about a staggering amount of material written in those 5-6 years.

Not to meniton, LotR took so long because Tolkien face the difficulty of getting started. Once he found his story, it didn't take an incredibly long time.


Tolkien had problems in getting to grips with LotR, since he started the book under the impression it was just THE HOBBIT 2. But that really didn't take such a long time. He started writing the book around Christmas 1937 and by 1939 he'd already called it THE LORD OF THE RINGS, decided on the Ring as the major linking item between the two books, Sauron as the villain and conceived the idea of the book as a sequel as much to THE SILMARILLION as THE HOBBIT. And from that point it was still eight years to write the manuscript and another two after that to complete the final manuscript (and then another six until it was in print).

So yes, it was an exceptionally long time.

And of course we could get into THE SILMARILLION. 200,000 words, begun in 1917, published in 1977. Even if we accepted that Tolkien wrote ten words a day, worked seven days a week and writing was his fourth-highest priority, by your logic he was still a lazy-ass loser worthy only of contempt for taking that amount of time to write a book (and dying before he managed it).-
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A Dance With Dragons - 22/03/2011 11:43:01 PM 2472 Views
See, I disagree. - 23/03/2011 01:05:59 AM 1592 Views
Also, I think we all know GRRM has more interest than just writing - 23/03/2011 05:06:34 AM 1465 Views
I would agree with you, but... - 24/03/2011 06:59:14 AM 1385 Views
If that is true... - 24/03/2011 09:57:13 AM 1318 Views
... - 23/03/2011 01:17:57 AM 1464 Views
Yeah but, come on, 6 years? And 5 years for the book before that? *NM* - 23/03/2011 05:05:01 AM 669 Views
Yes that is longer than most... - 23/03/2011 08:31:57 PM 1368 Views
Many, many.. - 24/03/2011 09:58:28 AM 1510 Views
The way I see it ... - 23/03/2011 03:59:35 AM 1471 Views
If people are upset with him, don't buy the book. - 23/03/2011 07:52:02 AM 1352 Views
Re: If people are upset with him, don't buy the book. - 23/03/2011 01:22:09 PM 1275 Views
Do you guys literally have nothing else to read? - 24/03/2011 06:40:51 AM 1245 Views
do you realize how little time is spent on whining and bitching? - 24/03/2011 10:06:16 AM 1261 Views
Well, you're spending time on it right now. *NM* - 25/03/2011 03:35:10 AM 672 Views
Some is not necessarily a lot. Open a logic textbook. *NM* - 25/03/2011 12:18:38 PM 718 Views
Re: Do you guys literally have nothing else to read? - 24/03/2011 03:58:11 PM 1345 Views
Personally, I completely forgot about the series... - 25/03/2011 03:46:58 AM 1283 Views
Re: Personally, I completely forgot about the series... - 25/03/2011 12:22:07 PM 1313 Views
No, that's not his attitude. - 24/03/2011 11:53:55 PM 1263 Views
The reason some authors say such things is.. - 28/03/2011 09:33:01 AM 1331 Views
yeah - 24/03/2011 10:02:38 AM 1325 Views
Re: - 25/03/2011 03:55:58 AM 1284 Views
accidental double click >< *NM* - 24/03/2011 10:02:39 AM 708 Views
*complain* - 23/03/2011 10:19:33 PM 1390 Views
*sigh* - 24/03/2011 10:11:29 AM 1729 Views
Re: *sigh* - 24/03/2011 01:56:51 PM 1408 Views
Well - 24/03/2011 02:44:00 PM 1328 Views
Re: Well - 25/03/2011 12:17:08 AM 1344 Views
apparently you cant read... - 25/03/2011 12:37:51 AM 1385 Views
Seriously? You don't know how Jordan's illness manifested itself? - 25/03/2011 02:19:23 AM 1415 Views
I'm glad you mentioned LotR - 25/03/2011 03:21:46 AM 1307 Views
Can we please stop making baseless comparisons to Lord of the Rings? Thanks. - 25/03/2011 06:22:50 AM 1321 Views
And can we try to strive for accuracy in what we are saying? Thanks. - 25/03/2011 08:24:51 AM 1333 Views
He still went to work, bucko. - 25/03/2011 06:57:26 PM 1187 Views
Question - 25/03/2011 09:00:08 PM 1314 Views
You, uh, just started arguing my position. - 26/03/2011 10:55:19 AM 1164 Views
Are you seriously that naive? - 25/03/2011 01:07:39 PM 1469 Views
I think you're relying on math way too much to interpret the situation. - 25/03/2011 08:48:32 PM 1572 Views
Re: Are you seriously that naive? - 25/03/2011 10:59:27 PM 1227 Views
Re: Well - 25/03/2011 05:08:25 AM 1487 Views
Re: Well - 25/03/2011 01:11:20 PM 1556 Views
Re: *complain* - 24/03/2011 04:01:39 PM 1248 Views
I think you're right, and I also think it doesn't matter - 24/03/2011 12:37:35 AM 1209 Views
i agree, however... - 24/03/2011 10:12:52 AM 1297 Views
I agree with some of that. - 24/03/2011 01:12:10 AM 1338 Views
I don't care at all after so long a wait, but I do love watching the fanboys scramble to defend him. *NM* - 24/03/2011 01:20:15 AM 744 Views
^^^ This ^^^ *NM* - 26/03/2011 11:32:40 AM 740 Views
He's lazy and selfish and has every right to be *NM* - 24/03/2011 02:18:14 AM 717 Views
Your complaints would find more resonance if he hadn't announced a publication date yet. - 24/03/2011 01:55:01 PM 1153 Views
I think you bring up a good point - 24/03/2011 03:35:34 PM 1244 Views
Re: A Dance With Dragons - 24/03/2011 02:06:48 PM 1346 Views
Re: A Dance With Dragons - 24/03/2011 03:08:27 PM 1270 Views
But Sanderson's book was a mess. *NM* - 24/03/2011 09:35:56 PM 653 Views
Was it really? Which one was this? *NM* - 25/03/2011 03:40:58 AM 732 Views
ToM. Still was better than what Jordan was writing, though. - 25/03/2011 06:21:49 AM 1076 Views
Interesting. - 27/03/2011 11:32:39 PM 1311 Views
I enjoyed them too! They were just a mess structurally. - 29/03/2011 01:54:57 AM 1286 Views
In some places, yeah. - 29/03/2011 04:17:38 AM 1775 Views
I thought it was pretty damn good, personally. *NM* - 25/03/2011 05:13:25 AM 757 Views
I enjoyed it a lot more than I enjoyed any of Jordan's recent books. - 25/03/2011 06:20:47 AM 1357 Views
I enjoyed it immensely as well, but im still torn - 25/03/2011 03:07:59 PM 1290 Views
I'm torn too. - 27/03/2011 11:34:35 PM 1468 Views
Re: A Dance With Dragons - 25/03/2011 05:19:01 AM 1386 Views
This thread is becoming vaguely ridiculous. - 25/03/2011 01:31:40 PM 1375 Views
These threads are always ridiculous. I'm both astounded & not at all surprised that there's another - 25/03/2011 06:39:34 PM 1251 Views
EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE! - 25/03/2011 08:28:10 PM 1204 Views
I love threads like these. *NM* - 26/03/2011 10:53:38 AM 541 Views
Are you familiar with Minecraft? - 25/03/2011 07:05:56 PM 1254 Views
Whoops. - 26/03/2011 09:25:28 PM 1222 Views
What is this I don't even. - 27/03/2011 08:03:59 AM 1099 Views
Jaysus, it's not like he's maliciously holding back the book on you - 25/03/2011 03:46:00 PM 1260 Views
Re: Jaysus, it's not like he's maliciously holding back the book on you - 25/03/2011 04:31:31 PM 1464 Views
Re: Your math up above - 25/03/2011 04:45:23 PM 1263 Views
If you redo it ... - 25/03/2011 04:57:29 PM 1265 Views
Re: Your math up above - 26/03/2011 02:43:03 PM 1428 Views
That was gentle ribbing, not ad hom. Calm down. - 26/03/2011 04:22:24 PM 1195 Views
I used a smiley and everything! - 26/03/2011 04:52:48 PM 1411 Views
That's a great line. - 26/03/2011 07:01:42 PM 1192 Views
Re: That was gentle ribbing, not ad hom. Calm down. - 26/03/2011 05:09:19 PM 1398 Views
When you see people like Nate, Tash, or Rebekah, you don't have to worry. - 26/03/2011 06:59:01 PM 1217 Views
I see that I need to work on my reputation. - 28/03/2011 05:49:30 PM 1307 Views
Perhaps it is the same as one does not speak ill of fairies or elves. - 28/03/2011 11:22:17 PM 1251 Views
YEAH YOU'RE A TERRIBLE ADMIN - 29/03/2011 01:58:41 AM 1223 Views
A very wise man once informed people that George R. R. Martin is not their bitch. - 26/03/2011 09:26:15 PM 1291 Views
How very true. *NM* - 26/03/2011 10:19:59 PM 667 Views

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