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Re: Ah. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 25/08/2011 01:21:05 AM



Touché :D I think Jaime's interesting because he's almost the opposite...early in the book the reader is supposed to think he's horrible because of what other people think of him. I think killing Mad King Aerys was absolutely the right thing to do, and that seems to be what people hold against him. Except there was that whole throwing Bran off the tower thing. So. I have to concede your point.
There were other options. One of the finest warriors on the continent and he was incapable of restraining a scrawny old mad man? Besides, what of his other duties such as protecting the rightful successor, the infant Aegon? The point is not that killing Aerys was a good or bad thing, but that Jaime violated his oath in doing so.



Yes, I thought her hanging scene was written in such a way as to imply that she didn't actually die. Maybe it's just because I recognize Martin's style in those (like Arya's getting hit in the head by Sandor's axe).
Or Theon blacking out as Ramsay burns Winterfell, or Theon jumping from the wall, or Asha about to get nailed in the flight from Deepwood Motte, or Tyrion passing out at the battle of the Blackwater, or Arya getting menaced by Yoren's knife, or, well, you get the jist, I'm sure.



I didn't forget his threats, but I don't think he actually would have done it.
I could accept that defense in any book BUT the one where he heaps such scorn on the Frey's for their inept handling of Edmure as a hostage, and empty threats to hang him.
I think Jaime-at-the-beginning-of-the-books would have, but I don't think Jaime-now would. That's the difference between him and Theon in my mind. Jaime has grown and changed, Theon has merely suffered. I can't even really give him credit for saving Jeyne, because he was basically forced to.
Yeah. At that point, he was a whipped dog, who had simply chosen Mance & his women to replace Ramsay. Though he did seem to have some concern and care for Jeyne. On the other hand there are subtle things such as his recollection of his feigned escape with Kyra, where he tried to abandon her to save himself. He's good at expressing concern and good intentions, and more self-serving when it comes to follow-through.


We are seeing Jaime and Cersei progress very differently though. I think he's perhaps becoming capable of that level of self-reflection.
Here's hoping. But he isn't redeemed until he atones. Honestly, the best fate I could see in store for him is taking the black once everything has shaken out.



Indeed. I think I need to read the novellas to get more of the backstory here.
There isn't any, really. He is often mentioned, and mysterious or supernatural powers are ascribed to him by commoners and low-ranking nobles, but in much the same manner as they are ascribed to Varys. So he may have wielded magical powers during his days in service to his Targaryen brother and nephew, or he may simply have been a highly capable master of covert ops who preferred to let people believe in scrying or seeing through birds' eyes instead of actually investigating for possible spies. As far as a connection to the Starks, they are never referenced in the novellas, except a mention in tMK that Lord Stark is gathering forces to fight off Dagon Greyjoy. I think that any such affection is more likely due to them being more readily observed by him in his greenseer incarnation, given the significance of the godswood in their lives, as opposed to the rest of the nobles.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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Questions I have after finishing ADwD. Spoilers of course. - 17/08/2011 04:48:04 PM 2090 Views
Re: Questions I have after finishing ADwD. Spoilers of course. - 18/08/2011 12:46:33 AM 1614 Views
Re: Questions I have after finishing ADwD. Spoilers of course. - 18/08/2011 01:58:17 AM 1476 Views
Bran didn't recognize him because his face is always covered - 18/08/2011 04:28:55 AM 1460 Views
If his face is always covered, how can you say you know who he is? - 18/08/2011 12:14:18 PM 1376 Views
I don't think anyone's saying they know who he is. - 18/08/2011 02:42:32 PM 1400 Views
The thing is we do not know how long you can be a wight - 18/08/2011 03:08:33 PM 1478 Views
Given that Martin doesn't seem to introduce characters like that, someone we know is more likely - 18/08/2011 09:36:50 PM 1345 Views
And how developed was the Three Eyed Crow - 19/08/2011 04:27:32 AM 1487 Views
But the point is, they were introduced at least, and not brought in from left field. - 19/08/2011 11:36:41 AM 1425 Views
Well, it was sort of foreshadowed (in hindsight). - 19/08/2011 01:29:48 PM 1475 Views
That's true. - 18/08/2011 02:10:19 PM 1378 Views
Re: Questions I have after finishing ADwD. Spoilers of course. - 18/08/2011 01:22:05 AM 1468 Views
Re: Questions I have after finishing ADwD. Spoilers of course. - 18/08/2011 02:10:30 AM 1546 Views
Re: Questions I have after finishing ADwD. Spoilers of course. - 18/08/2011 12:09:13 PM 1443 Views
Re: Questions I have after finishing ADwD. Spoilers of course. - 18/08/2011 04:41:10 AM 1464 Views
You know, that's a really good point. - 18/08/2011 02:07:50 PM 1387 Views
Another reason Theon is sympathetic - 18/08/2011 03:13:12 PM 1712 Views
could you elaborate? - 19/08/2011 03:16:59 AM 1511 Views
Re: could you elaborate? - 20/08/2011 01:37:43 AM 1563 Views
Ok, I see part of that - 21/08/2011 01:10:47 AM 1603 Views
Do you mean - 22/08/2011 06:36:44 PM 1527 Views
Assuming the Quentyn, Dothraki sea, and Meereen pyramid parts are true... - 25/08/2011 07:33:10 PM 1468 Views
That's the other problem I have - 25/08/2011 08:12:01 PM 1888 Views
I would hope GRRM knows better than that - 26/08/2011 12:49:42 AM 1439 Views
Re: Questions I have after finishing ADwD. Spoilers of course. - 18/08/2011 06:28:03 AM 1435 Views
LOL - 18/08/2011 02:14:59 PM 1427 Views
Re: LOL - 19/08/2011 05:29:51 AM 1558 Views
Huge agree and disagree - 19/08/2011 02:06:24 PM 1701 Views
Re: Huge agree and disagree - 22/08/2011 05:58:13 AM 1407 Views
Remember she also had her faced chewed off - 22/08/2011 02:25:21 PM 1477 Views
Re: Remember she also had her faced chewed off - 23/08/2011 05:14:04 AM 1344 Views
I imagine - 23/08/2011 02:16:12 PM 1467 Views
Re: I imagine - 24/08/2011 06:41:39 AM 1476 Views
Yes. - 22/08/2011 06:39:43 PM 1364 Views
Re: Yes. - 23/08/2011 05:42:04 AM 1373 Views
Re: Yes. - 23/08/2011 02:19:55 PM 1548 Views
Re: Yes. - 24/08/2011 07:09:11 AM 1623 Views
Re: Questions I have after finishing ADwD. Spoilers of course. - 18/08/2011 09:33:57 PM 1614 Views
Ah. - 22/08/2011 06:27:10 PM 1512 Views
Re: Ah. - 25/08/2011 01:21:05 AM 1565 Views

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